I disagree with Louis' philosophy ...
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Topic: I disagree with Louis' philosophy ...
Posted By: ChristianKnight
Subject: I disagree with Louis' philosophy ...
Date Posted: 15 Nov 2012 at 8:32pm
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I disagree with some of Louis' essay ...
Admonishing the young and inexperienced to be more careful, to take fewer risks, to slow down, is something all of us will do—once we have shed our youth and inexperience. The question is: How does a kayaker, a person, go about shedding youth and inexperience? Really, when it comes down to it, we have to options: 1.) Through clinics, and coaching, and directed training. 2.) Through experience—many of them bad. I believe in both. I believe in developing fundamentals. A fundamental forward stroke. A fundamental duffek. A fundamental boof. I believe in learning how to read water and evaluate risk. The stuff Louis writes about in his essay is easy to agree with—in theory. The problem with his argument is that it is idealistic and, to some extent, out of touch with most of the accomplished kayakers I know. Most kayakers don't have the luxury of coaches and clinics, clinics, clinics, clinics, as Pat Keller prescribed. Most kayakers don't learn as teens, or pre-teens, while growing up on the river. Most kayakers learn from a friend, who lured them into it. That friend is not interested in developing an athlete, who'll compete at the next World Cup. That friend is usually interested in developing a paddling partner, who can help him/her explore his/her backyard creeks. And so, you learn on the fly, by missing a boof stroke and getting trashed, by missing an eddy and washing over the ledge backwards, by leaning the wrong way and windowshading or back-endering in a hole. You learn by attempting what you shouldn't. You learn by portaging a rapid you really wanted to run, that you thought you could run, except for one stubborn move, that made you unsure. You learn by watching Rush Sturges and Pat Keller on video. You learn by analyzing what they did right and where you went wrong, by asking your friend what went wrong, and then by doing it again, and again, and again until you get it right. That's how most of us learn. Yes, it is dangerous, which is why so many quit. And yes, it can be embarrassing. And demoralizing. It can convince you to quit. But you don't quit. You stick with it. Not because you have the luxury of coaches to analyze your stroke or your roll. Not because you have clinics designed to help you perfect them. No. You don't quit because deep down, more than anything, you aspire. You aspire to run Big Brother. You aspire to run the Top Tye. You aspire to be good enough to explore. Or race. Or loop. Those are goals. Those are real, vivid goals. And when you've accomplished those goals, you know, you know for the first time, you can accomplish other goals. I learned to kayak the wrong way, I suppose. I paddled the Skykomish on my second time kayaking. I swam twice. I paddled the Green Truss section of the White Salmon 11 months after first sitting in a Perception Overflow. I swam twice. I paddled the Cispus after 12 months in a kayak. I swam four times. And then I taught my brother to kayak. And I suppose I did that the wrong way too. I taught him how to roll on the South Fork of the Skykomish—in December. I coaxed him into exploring the Top Tye five months after he'd started. This isn't the prescription of those who grew up with slalom gates. It's a more dangerous, less structured, and less forgiving prescription. And those who stick with it, those who eventually shed the youth and the inexperience, do so because more than any other athletic pursuit, they love whitewater exploration. ------------- Catch your eddies, Christian |
Replies:
Posted By: Kyle K
Date Posted: 15 Nov 2012 at 9:13pm
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Right on Christian, well said. ------------- "I used to be somebody, now I'm somebody else." Bad Blake |
Posted By: mokelumnekid
Date Posted: 15 Nov 2012 at 9:17pm
I find this just as idealistic as the perspectives it derides. It presents a Horatio Alger-esq sentimental view that by dint of a commitment born of romantic visions of watching Rush et al. and a willingness to take beat-downs (which somehow don't lead to any real consequences) at some point one emerges having realized their white water potential by a golden empiricism. The weak and uncommitted drift away, but the true savant, the kayaking "whisperers" who travel the dangerous path, a tantric whitewater journey where many are called but few are chosen, manage to get it on downstream (in the sport).  While that may be true, as far as the original post goes, speaking only for myself, I was thinking more of ass-hats who after managing to get down Big Eddy with "only" one swim are clamoring to get in the thick of say, Bounder Drop or Upper Green Gorge. Or someone who miraculously made it down Boulder Drop a couple of times is now is angling for Tumwater. Boating is a team sport. From my perspective when we go out as a group I am implicitly committing myself to doing all I can to save someone's neck, even at risk of my own (in theory) and also if s-t hits the fan, having to pick up the pieces. Including having to tell Mom and Dad that, "Yeah, junior was reckless as hell but somehow it never occurred to us to suggest that they were obviously way-in over their heads." I can think of numerous recent examples. This is the kind of behavior I understood the original post to be referring to- the somewhat remarkable lapse of judgement that an excitable, especially novice, boater can embrace. And in the absence of friends, community or boating culture that invites introspection on one's actions it can be inviting tragedy. I'm not trying to be a 'Donald downer' just that I've seen some recent examples that left me kinda speechless is all. So visiting this topic seems warranted. |
Posted By: Sam_Graftton
Date Posted: 15 Nov 2012 at 11:40pm
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Well said Christian. I disagreed with the following statement from Louis' essay...
"That danger manifests itself in a way that is perhaps unique to kayaking, and in a way that might account for some antagonism toward boaters insistent on paddling over their heads. In kayaking, there are a lot of ways that things can go wrong. Most of them, though, lead to a brief and urgent window during which another boater can step in and potentially save someone’s life. A pin, a swimmer being recirculated, a long swim threatening a flush drowning… in all these situations, urgent action can be the difference between life and death. And in all these situations, too, that urgent action is likely to call on someone else to immediately put his own life at risk. In the surf, outside of the unique dynamic of tow-in surfing, someone getting beat down is basically on his own. If someone falls climbing, there’s either someone standing at the end of the rope, or there isn’t. But in kayaking, when someone is in trouble, someone has to act, boldly, and immediately." Just my personal belief on class V rescue and Kayaking class V is that you are always on your own not to say that someone can't rescue you. But a big water swim, a foot entrapment are situations in class V that will most likely result in death even if the rescuers are well trained and on top it. I think that people need to be aware and in the mind set that Kayaking class V particularly big water there is very little anyone can do for you. Louis is the man and I did like his essay. |
Posted By: septimus prime
Date Posted: 16 Nov 2012 at 7:10am
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Yeah, the idea in his article and echoed elsewhere that kayakers would risk their life for any fellow boater is bull sh*t. no offense but there are only a handful of people I would risk my life for on the river, because guess what my kid is more important than you. I expect the same from the community. As Sam mentioned, when you put on class v, you are in a sense, on your own and you better be ready to deal. I think I am going to get that tag for my PFD now that says "DNR". |
Posted By: mokelumnekid
Date Posted: 16 Nov 2012 at 8:00am
| Speaking at least for my comments, I wasn't referring to class V conditions especially. Plenty of people can get into a jam on class III, and the lack of personal understanding of one's limits and consequences is likely less frequent on class V. However I do know a boater who recently proudly announced they had run class V when I know they don't even have a solid roll in current. WTF? This is the kind of thing that I was referring to. |
Posted By: Sam_Graftton
Date Posted: 16 Nov 2012 at 9:00am
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I mean in water rescue the priorities in order are
1. Safety of yourself 2. Safety of fellow rescuers 3. Safety of any bystanders 4. Last but not least rescuing the subject And yes you should you be willing to do everything you can to save someone. But as Jon said dying to save someone you can't save isn't worth it. |
Posted By: mokelumnekid
Date Posted: 16 Nov 2012 at 9:06am
| Good, agree, point well taken. Thanks for reminding me about that. |
Posted By: jP
Date Posted: 16 Nov 2012 at 9:33am
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Well said, Christian. And who better to provide a balance to these perspectives than yourself? Your post is the only one I have time to read. Gotta meet up for a Robe run today.
But for now, let me say that I hope there is a balance, a middle ground. Because the Christian Knight in the twitch videos looks out of control for sure. I'm wondering how he managed to survive some of that carnage. Where as the Christian Knight I know is solid and graceful to watch, so clearly he came out the other side intact. There are casualties though, and there is a middle ground. I'd encourage people to find that middle ground. If you charge, exercise your judgement in holding back. If you are cautious, make yourself "go for it more" Anywsy, I'd love to read all the responses, but I gotta go boat. |
Posted By: Travisimo
Date Posted: 16 Nov 2012 at 10:06am
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Thank you Christian!!! I thought I was the only one. I don't get why groups are finger pointing at other groups. If you think somebody is a risk, don't paddle with them. That's what I've always tried to do. I like seeing paddlers push their limits and have taken risks pulling them out when things go wrong. I've seen plenty of awesome boaters have bad lines too, and the rescue attempts are equally risky. From the anger expressed in that thread and in the comments in the Youtube video you'd think people were getting hurt frequently trying to rescue idiots. Is that happening? ------------- H2O please |
Posted By: Jed Hawkes
Date Posted: 16 Nov 2012 at 11:22am
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I hear where your coming from Christian, it is unrealistic for all boater to attend clinics and formal training. There is already a huge financial hurdle for people to get into the sport and adding a $300.00 class a couple times a year isn't going to happen unless you have family willing to fork over the cash or aren't a Dirtbag Kayaker, and the school of hard knocks is the reality of how the vast majority of paddlers get into whitewater.
But what I got from the article is that there is a culture of stepping up the difficulty faster than the skill sets. Yes you have to miss 100 boofs strokes before you really start to understand timing. But to use his example to miss those 100 strokes on a run like the green (NC), truss, or Robe for that matter is not the place. I learned that the hard way and took a big step back to reassess my skills and priorities. It's much better to miss those 100 boof strokes catching the eddy at nozzle on the green (WA) than at T2. The culture stems from the ideal that if you got to bottom of a class IV rapid without swimming then your a class IV boater, but the reality is if you can't catch a good sized eddy in a class IV rapid your not a class IV boater. Here in the PNW we have the luxury of usually only boating with the people we put on with, but sometimes you put on a run and there are other boater out there and if someone is swimming by themselves most people will do there best to insure that they get to shore and out of the river so in that circumstance you can't really choose who you boat with. And as far as safety goes, yes your personal safety is priority and in a way it's the persons responsibility to judge for themselves if a run is too hard for them. But your not always going to 100% assess those risks, sometimes a routine thing like bulldozing a boat to shore can go pear shaped because of something you had no way of knowing or observing about your environment. Swimming out to a strainer to unpin your buddy is an obvious example of putting yourself in bodily harm, but going out of your way to get a paddle and then suddenly having to tangle with unseen hazards because of it sucks, especially if the swim/pin/whatever was easily avoidable if the individual had the skills on par with the run they were doing. I feel this conversation applies mostly to the class IV+ world and up. In class II-III rivers you can usually get away with just making it down, and that's why class III is the perfect environment for honing those timing skills, stroke placement, strokes, hull manipulation and so on. ------------- The line will become apparent 978-273-7723 |
Posted By: huckin harms
Date Posted: 16 Nov 2012 at 11:51am
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Wow... I'm kinda stunned. I read Louis G. article and thought it was a very well reasoned and thoughtful approach highlighting the importance of incremental progression. It struck me as a very good piece to bringing some balance to the ever increasing risk taking that is apart of the progression in kayaking especially among the youth entering the sport.Then I read Christian's post last night and almost responded. Thought better to let the dust settle some before commenting. It's curious to me... Christian is teaching his daugter to kayak and I'm sure he is going to do all in his power to give her the experience that makes for developing good judgement. That experience will include years of class II and class III, and development of all the solid fundamentals that he spoke of above. Good judgement and use of discretion only come from actual experience, not from a textbook or video and are so important and yet easily under-rated in a culture where we glorify the one's who survive taking the biggest risk. I think the school of thought that Christian espouses is the School of Hard Knocks. This school produces some hard charging honey badgers but also has a pretty high attrition rate. For somebody starting out in this sport it only takes one close call or a severe beating to slow down the level of progression, or just end it all together. Many stories exist of folks having tried kayaking but something scary happened and its not for them now.And here's the rub for me... it's really easy to get in over your head without even knowing you are doing it. There are very few activities that I can think of that come even close to kayaking. In climbing if you can climb 5.9 then 5.11 is only going to happen with lots of hard work and dedication. Same with riding the mountain, you get into the steeps and fall that's that and so usually the double black diamond signs are warning enough for novices and intermediates. The thing with boating is anyone with or with out skills can put on any given run and give it a go. And as highlighted by Doug Ammons recent article whitewater can be incredible forgiving. But just because someone gets down some run doesn't equate to having had the skill set to justify the attempt.So I believe it is paramount for the more experienced boaters to be able to help those who aren't as experienced by offering the advice as to whether this run or that run is a good place to test the advancement of a persons skill set. To just blithely believe that it will all work out and hope for the best lacks the good judgement that experience should be helping to develop. Yes, people will swim in pushing the limits but lets keep those limits being pushed in places where its most suitable for the lack of development of a solid skill set. Stepping it up into class V isn't a good place to develop skills. Those skills should already be in place. This is what I think Louis was getting at. The importance of establishing a solid skill set and having the ability to exercise good judgement in relation to the challenge of any given run. That skill set is established through hours and years of practice usually on known runs where skills can be honed and mastered. That's usually why you see a former slalom paddler shredding classV like it is classIII, their skill set is dialed after years and years of working on strokes and catching eddies and using learning to use water. Recently, I was with a group who encouraged a person to run BD for their first time. That person swam and was none the worse for wear. The next day that person went for it and made it down without a swim but not in good style. It was a huge accomplishment for that person and was very excited about having done it. But the truth is that person might not make it down the next time without another swim. The skill set is rough and more paddling experience is all that is needed to advance from novice to intermediate. Should that person have not tried... I don't know. I certainly would have advised a portage just as a precaution but it wasn't 'my' trip. The fact that the person got after it again is quite admirable, but if they had swam a second time in as many days, then a big question mark is them to consider. AND that's just it... so often we can carp and sketch our way down something get some high fives and call it good without acknowledging that maybe we weren't really ready for that yet. But that's not what gets the glory. I don't think it has to be an either or thing... clinics and gates or a more dangerous, less structured school of hard knocks. What it comes down to is being able to honestly assess our own skill sets in relation to the challenges we are seeking out on the water. And then at some point if your running class V throwing caution to the wind and just going for it. But your dues had better be paid up.
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Posted By: huckin harms
Date Posted: 16 Nov 2012 at 11:54am
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Thanks Jed, I took an hour or so to write that last post and you said it all in just a few minutes.... ------------- |
Posted By: AMcEwan
Date Posted: 16 Nov 2012 at 2:34pm
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Christian describes Louis's point of view as "to some extent, out of touch," with the current culture. Louis would probably agree with that; in fact, his objective is a reform of that culture away from a video-centric school of hard knocks. It seems to me that he's advocating for a safer, more aesthetically-oriented approach to paddling. One that emphasizes style and smoothness (probably not coincidentally, Louis is a paragon of that style). It's true that's not how many people get into whitewater, but it could be.
As to the point that this is unachievable: pricey coaching and lessons certainly speed up the progression, but as Weld mentions in the article, hitting class V moves in class III whitewater will necessarily develop the same set of skills. Your adrenal glands, meanwhile, can live to fight another day.
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Posted By: ChristianKnight
Date Posted: 16 Nov 2012 at 3:16pm
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This has been a good discussion--one that has kept perspectives in context and added even more perspective. All of us agree that skilled kayakers are better for the image of the sport, as well as the experience of the group. The question is how to acquire the skill. Hard Knocks is an unforgiving route, with high attrition and the heightened possibility of serious accidents. Clinics, classes and coaching is no less forgiving, only in a different way. Those with the means (either with the money or with the parents) can attend and develop their skills in relatively safe environments. Those without the means must attend the School of Hard Knocks. Not by choice, but by default. I suppose if we, the experienced paddlers, are truly serious about changing the culture, about slowing down the aspiration to Class V-YouTube glory, we must do more than tell the fired-up kid with little means that he doesn't belong. We'd have to do more than tell him to go back to Class III and work on moves. That doesn't work. It will just give that kid even more to prove to the people who rejected him. To truly change the culture, we can't be content to just identify some middle-ground between the two perspectives of the School of Hard Knocks and the School of Classes, Clinics and Coaches. We will have to be that middle-ground. We will have to serve as quasi-coaches for the kid. And to do that, we might have to pass up a run down Robe or the Tye or the Little White to run Class III with the fired-up kid; to show him how to make a Class V river out of a Class III run. If we don't, we're not really changing anything. We're not even changing the debate. We're just repeating the same stuff and making the same arguments that our predecessors made about some of us.
------------- Catch your eddies, Christian |
Posted By: jP
Date Posted: 16 Nov 2012 at 4:07pm
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Well, ok- got off Robe at a fairly benign flow (5.35') and the funniest thinkg to me about this whole discussion, including Louis' assertions, Christian's and the comments above is that,
Everyone is correct. Even though these assertions seem to oppose one another they are simultaneously both "right". Moke- loved your post all the way. Sam, yeah, when we run Class V we are likely "on our own" if things go wrong. But Louis is right in that often by overstepping our bounds, we potentially risk being a "liability" to the rest of the group. I've been on trips where sh*t went down and we worked it all out, butthe cause and effect delayed us such that we got caught in the dark and were now exposed to new dangers (log jams). Unfortunaty the complexities involved are "inumerable", and no one's opinion or experience can cover them all. But Louis has his points, unrealistic though they seem when compared to the reality as Christian outlined it. But, Sam, I would caution against the attitude that "we are on our own", which is largely what Darren would likely say (but I shouldn't try to put words in his mouth, just that he's said as much in the past). I think we should aspire to paddle as if we are "on our own", but we should also strive to look out for each other MUCH BETTER THAN WE DO. because if you don't look behind you, or don't eddy out to let people catch up, signal for hazards that maybe aren't terrible but could still catch someone off guard, well, you are being less safe than you could be. Jon, I see where you are coming from, but those considerations shouldn't be a waiver to not be as alert as you can that you might be able to help someone in need. But these are all theoreticals. Yeah, Christian: it was TOTALLY irresponsible for you to lead people the way you did then, and if I'd known you then I woulda been very opinionated and pissed at the lack of judgement and, well, ethics. But those water molocules you paddled on then are probably circling Madagascar now or embedded in some snow drift near the summit of Everest. I think the important thing is that the dialog is flowing. Because,Christian, you are right-- many people approach the sport the way you outlined it. But it doesn't mean its the right way to go. Not for everyone, at least. And once upon a time before internet, before kayaking videos, ect. If you got a boat and you were in, say, Montana, you were cut off from the hot spot regions where all of the collective knowledge and experience could influence you. You had to Cowboy Up if you really wanted to advance. But those days are gone. Now, if you don't take advantage of the skills and talent of the people around you, its your own damn fault. But beginners leading beginers is NO BUENO. |
Posted By: JayB
Date Posted: 16 Nov 2012 at 4:38pm
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"I think we should aspire to paddle as if we are "on our own", but we
should also strive to look out for each other MUCH BETTER THAN WE DO.
because if you don't look behind you, or don't eddy out to let people
catch up, signal for hazards that maybe aren't terrible but could still
catch someone off guard, well, you are being less safe than you could
be." Couldn't agree more. This is one place where it'd be very easy for experienced long-timers to shape the culture in small ways every time they paddle. Whether the more experience folks or even the folks that paddle with them are aware of it or not - less experienced people will pick up on your vibe, emulate what you do, and carry at least part of it with them on the next run. ------------- -Jay |
Posted By: jP
Date Posted: 16 Nov 2012 at 5:00pm
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...missed those last posts. Mike, I really agree with yours and Jed's posts probably the most.
As far as the clinics thing, just because you spend $$ doesn't ensure you're going to get "the real deal". People are PURCHASING their ACA credentials now more than ever, and I hate to say it, but there are a lot of "counterfiet" instructors out there who aren't even solid. Sometimes not even experienced because mommy and daddy bought that for them too. I feel fortunate that I had perhaps fifty or more very talented paddlers involved in my upbringing as a kid and a paddler. Names in the history books, many of whom are still out plying the waters. We seem to all agree that there is a hyper accelerated progression that isn't healthy as a whole, and it is driven by the "glamour" (haha- for lack of a better word) of the video star gnar. It comes down ultimately to knowing yourself. We are all different, with differing goals we'd like to exact from the sport, differing mentalities, ect. I dunno. There should be more emphasison boating solid. Boating smooth. Like Jed emphasised. I liked how Andrew articulated his piece too. One time, in the Clarks Fork of the Yellowstone, Bozo (wish I knew his real name-he was one of our leaders- I saw him out on the N. Fk Payette last time I was there, that's his backyard run) Anyway, Bozo cleaned this really tricky slalom move between two rocks, so he could hit a 10' tall boof and thereby avoid a nasty flume. I didn't feel confident for sure I could hit the line, and I was one of the more technicly proficient boaters on the trip. I decided to walk. Ben Jammin decided to fire it up and I knew he didn't have the skill required to execute the move. I knew he didn't, because that move was my specialty, and I wasn't sure myself. Now how can I tell him flat out all of this? I can't. All I can do is suggest that, hey, its a tough move with consequences, and shoulder my boat. But the fact that I was walking with other boaters didn't influence him. He got denied entry through the tight rock slalom, flipped, and ran the steep shallow flume upside down. Got his bell rung hard. Can't say it was a pleasure to watch, but later as he sat on the bank with his head spinning and a mild concusion, well, I just shrugged coldly. I guarantee you he learned a lesson. And if he's happy with how he learned it via the school of "hard knocks", in this case litterally, well more power to him. Knock yourself out. To a point. But, I'm not keen on the idea of recovering a body just because someone "didn't belong in there". Not saying Mr. Jammin in my above example didn't belong. He was up to the challenges of the run, even if he (in my opinion) grossly mis judged his abilities in that scenario. I agree that these issues show them selves in highest relief on class IV runs where people are exploring their limits. Anyway time for me to shut up because this topic is expansive enough that I get almost lost in it. |