Molybdenum
Printed From: ProfessorPaddle.com
Category: General
Forum Name: Chit Chat
Forum Discription: Non Boating Related Discussions
URL: http://www.professorpaddle.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=5643
Printed Date: 24 Jun 2025 at 10:19am
Topic: Molybdenum
Posted By: James
Subject: Molybdenum
Date Posted: 05 Sep 2007 at 10:31am
Replies:
Posted By: James
Date Posted: 05 Sep 2007 at 10:35am
This project is going into a remote region of northern BC. Did anyone know that Ledcor is really all over the US doing projects everywhere from CA to WA to CO and they are all pretty invasive and there is a lot of destruction going on for ore and other materials.
J
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Posted By: franzhorner
Date Posted: 05 Sep 2007 at 10:42am
shame, shame, shame
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Posted By: justin
Date Posted: 05 Sep 2007 at 2:08pm
i'd like to use that giant drill on the ceo of ledcor
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Posted By: GabeI
Date Posted: 05 Sep 2007 at 4:13pm
Well that sounds wonderful, just look at how it enhances the natural beauty of the land.
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Posted By: erikSANDSTROM
Date Posted: 05 Sep 2007 at 5:03pm
hippies
------------- This river don't go to Aintry. You done taken a wrong turn.
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Posted By: RemAcct2
Date Posted: 05 Sep 2007 at 6:17pm
Do you all realize how much rare-earth metals (not Molybdenum, though) are required to build the computers you typed this on? Many strip mines you speak about, and you can hardly single out Ledcor, as they are a fairly small player, go after rare metals to fuel the curent building boom and the semiconductor industry.
Do you know how much power computers draw? Each PC left on all the time draws more than 1000kwh per year. An estimate from BC Hydro shows that 170 GWh of power are wasted by computers in BC alone that are not truned off at night. This is roughly the output of a 20Mw firm generation plant (e.g. coal or high dam), or a 50-60Mw hydro run of river plant. Did you know the servers employed by the eco-green poster child Google draw 1/2 the output of the Ashlu project? Did you know the average gamer's computer (including the Xbox) draws 4-5 times more power than a typical laptop?
Oh, and speaking of giant drills, is it ok when it drills a hole between the United Kingdom and France? Why not use that drill (the largest TBM ever constructed) on Guillaume Pepy, chairman of Eurostar (opperators of the chunnel)? What makes him better than Ledcor's CEO, David Lede?
Lots of hypocrisy out there...
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Posted By: water wacko
Date Posted: 05 Sep 2007 at 6:31pm
What is your point, Leaf?
------------- "Don't ask yourself what the world needs. Ask yourself what makes you come alive, and go do that, because what the world needs is people who have come alive." ~Howard Thurman
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Posted By: justin
Date Posted: 05 Sep 2007 at 7:19pm
Well, I'd totally give up my computer, and my electricity. That way I could quit my job and just kayak all the time.
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Posted By: James
Date Posted: 05 Sep 2007 at 7:34pm
I think what leif is trying to say is that this is a futile arguement. I just figured it was a good investment opportunity to pass along. The price will keep dropping for another few weeks before it turns and goes wild again. One the pipelines have made their official orders and the raw ore is in demand it will be $$$ again. Well several of the largest oil pipelines in the world are being repaired and guess what the announcement was earlier this month. The pipelines are corroding because the alloy's are too soft that make up the pipe. So what do they use... Well Tungsten is nice and strong but really spendy... Ah Molybdenum... Great substitute with almost the same weight and melting point...
So my question is this.... Is it wrong to invest in Molybdenum?
It is going to help make our oil pipelines stronger and leakless which is good, but it is also the cause of some pretty serious devastation to the enviornment...
J
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Posted By: RemAcct2
Date Posted: 05 Sep 2007 at 8:33pm
I was making no reference to your first comment, James; just the follow up comments. Investing in metals other than Gold is difficult, as it involves either the futures market (risky) or physical storage (expensive).
To answer the question of "what's my point" - many actually, but let me call out the most important point. It does not advance a point of view, or succeed in defeating another point of view to make statements suggestiong that the CEO of a firm that employs 4500 people with good jobs should have a drill through his skull.
Let's remember that the strong pipes are critical, because without oil, we wouldn't have any kayaks with which to boat.
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Posted By: water wacko
Date Posted: 05 Sep 2007 at 8:48pm
thanks for reminding us...
------------- "Don't ask yourself what the world needs. Ask yourself what makes you come alive, and go do that, because what the world needs is people who have come alive." ~Howard Thurman
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Posted By: James
Date Posted: 05 Sep 2007 at 8:51pm
I feel so dirty...
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Posted By: RemAcct2
Date Posted: 05 Sep 2007 at 8:53pm
I am just waiting for the post "what does oil have to do with kayaks"...
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Posted By: dave
Date Posted: 05 Sep 2007 at 9:48pm
I don't think my PPC draws that much power Leif, and btw James, I need to get rich quick with little risk, so Multibrandyless here I come!
------------- Nomad
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Posted By: arnobarno
Date Posted: 05 Sep 2007 at 10:03pm
Posted By: RemAcct2
Date Posted: 05 Sep 2007 at 10:11pm
Or, you can just support sustainable, sensible policies which ballance the needs of society with the desire to protect nature.
By the way, did a bit of research. No futures market for Molybdenum. Good luck investing in it... Your only option is to invest in Copper mines, according to my research.
Arno: I am assuming from the smiley face and the fact that you are obviously a smart guy that you don't require an explination of the relationship of kayaks and oil.
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Posted By: SupaSta
Date Posted: 05 Sep 2007 at 10:56pm
At my work we use molybdenum (molly) to make navigational sensors that go into everything from airplanes and missles, to oil and mining drills, to those smart chips in your car, or Cadillac if you have the means
LIke Arno said, we're all adding to the problem and we don't even know it. 
Dan
------------- Life is short, paddle hard!
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Posted By: James
Date Posted: 05 Sep 2007 at 11:24pm
No Dan there is no future market for Molly. Its only the cheapest easiest hardening metal to add into alloy mixes for strength. Airplanes to Submarines as I understand it.
Copper is where you should invest! In an age where Fiber Optics are becoming the mainstay for telecommunications lines and the day of the coax is coming to an end!
James
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Posted By: water wacko
Date Posted: 06 Sep 2007 at 7:29am
Maybe one day Leaf will realize he's no smarter than the rest of us and a conservative republican affiliation will not always save his ass. ...okay I'm done
------------- "Don't ask yourself what the world needs. Ask yourself what makes you come alive, and go do that, because what the world needs is people who have come alive." ~Howard Thurman
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Posted By: justin
Date Posted: 06 Sep 2007 at 7:54am
I bet we could use less oil producing kayaks if we all recycled our boats.
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Posted By: arnobarno
Date Posted: 06 Sep 2007 at 9:39am
Well, as many of you know from previous posts, I'm a libertarian and have a pretty free-markets, small government, and individual liberty bias. So I'm not against development, per se, or oil, or even tweekers (until they tweek someone other than themselves). With that intro...
The amount of oil we'd save if we recycled our boats is de minimis. Not saying it is a bad thing to do but let's face it, you are burning magnitudes more oil driving to/from the put-ins than you'll recover from that recycled boat. It might make you feel good about yourself but in the grand scheme of things, it is mouse nuts.
Everything has trade-offs that are not easily analyzed in context a priori.
Just a couple of examples...
In the 60s, DDT ended up being banned practically worldwide because of the believed effects on the environment. And, there is no doubt it was overused in applications in which there are alternatives products that produce similar results without the harmful environmental impacts. But, it was (and is still) the most effective means of killing mosquitos and 10s of millions of people have - and continue to - needlessly die of malaria because of overly strict regulations.
In the 70s and 80s, the environmental movement fought hard against nuclear energy for a variety of reasons. But, people's desire for energy is virtually insatiable so w/o nuclear, other forms will be used - fossil fuels, alternative, etc. Remember, many people (not kayakers, of course) consider hydro "alternative" and a much better alternative than fossil. Well, now that same environmental movement is starting to come back around to nuclear because the alternatives (in their opinion today) are worse.
My point here is that the issues are complex and that it is easy to assume evil intentions on the part of the business owner, politician, environmentalist, Leif, whoever, etc. when the reality on the ground is often much more complex. My cynical (libertarian) view is that the more government involvement, the more screwed up it will get.
So, if you really support the environment, and want to preserve it, IMHO, support organizations like The Nature Conservancy, The Trust for Public Land, etc. These guys buy up the land and preserve it forever. Once you own it, you can stop development, dams, or anything else you don't like (even perhaps stop Leif from putting-in if you so desire ).
------------- arn9schaeffer@gmail.com (remove 9 for my real email address)
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Posted By: slickhorn
Date Posted: 06 Sep 2007 at 9:51am
what is with everyone jumping all over Leif? I will grant he was a little tactless in the way he articulated his points about the ashlu, but the man has a right to his opinions. He hardly seems like an ultra conservative to me, what am I missing?
If you can't recognize that there is a fundamental conflict between environmental sentiments and the consipcuous consumption required for a paddling lifestyle, you're simply not paying attention.
Leif seems to be saying, in all the posts I've seen some basic and sensible things:
- You can't just oppose all development all the time
- You have to recognize that the products we use to boat and the distances we travel are inherently not low-impact or sustainable
- If you can't formulate a political environmental agenda that can be supported by a consituency larger than whitewater paddlers, you're not going to get anywhere.
He is correct.
While the Ashlu is a travesty, it's a travesty more of the process by which hydro is developed, rather than an indictment of all hydro development. I believe hydro power is the cleanest, most sustainable, renewable, low impact reliable source of power we have. As ap addler I HATE IT. But I would rather have well-planned hydro than unregulated coal burning, wouldn't you? Does that make me an ultraconservative too?
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Posted By: RemAcct2
Date Posted: 06 Sep 2007 at 9:58am
I certainly agree with you. I only wanted to point out some of the hypocrisy of the statements. The oil used in the kayak industry is minimal compared to other industries. Ultimately, we need to be wise in balancing conservation with the needs of our society; balancing impact with growth.
The comments I made about computers and electronics in general are relevant, though. Between non-recycled waste disposable electronics (i.e. all electronics these days) and power draw from computers, video game consoles, etc. needlessly left on, and power draw from under-utilized over-powered datacenters, there is a serious problem. Green companies are a major source of venture capital in the Northwest these days - I see 2-4 deals a month go through in this area. Look for server virtualization firms (such as VMWare and the new seattle startup Illumita) to do well, given that they help consolidate servers and better manage data center power utilization by allowing firms to use fewer servers.
I am, at heart, a libertarian, as well. While I am a member of the Republican party, I believe in smaller government, fewer regulations, etc. At one time, I considered joining the libertarian party, but realized more can be done influencing the Republican party in my small way towards the libertarian ideal, though I certainly don't support the zero-government anarchist free-for-all that some loosertarians (credit to Michael Medved for that one) support.
As for Brett's comments, I am not sure how being a Republican changes the status as to whether my ass is or is not saved. I defend my own ass, proudly, and do not look to party affiliation to save my ass for me. I take the defense of my ass very seriously, and as Thomas Jefferson said, "Eternal vigilance is the price of liberty", or evidently in my case, my ass...
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Posted By: arnobarno
Date Posted: 06 Sep 2007 at 10:03am
Well, I for one, am not jumping all over Leif, as I actually mostly agree with him and with your well summarized points. I'm only using him as a minor foil for comic purposes (perhaps not effectively) to try to hopefully lighten things up here.
------------- arn9schaeffer@gmail.com (remove 9 for my real email address)
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Posted By: RemAcct2
Date Posted: 06 Sep 2007 at 10:04am
So, to put a fine point on Brian's last comment, we need to retool and find a better strategy to be effective in defeating the coming wave of micro-hydro projects. The point I tried (and failed due to poor choice of words) to make a while back was that there is a coming wave of projects, and a new direction is needed to be successful defeating these initiatives.
As far as clean, renewable power; my vote is always for Nuclear...
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Posted By: arnobarno
Date Posted: 06 Sep 2007 at 10:09am
My response interleaved with Leif's so one more comment.
I am a Libertarian but not a losertarian. When it comes time to vote, I only vote for someone that could actually win as opposed to casting a protest vote. So, once again, I guess I agree with Leif (and the other medheads that may be hiding out here on PP).
But all this agreeing with Leif may force me to reconsider my position 
------------- arn9schaeffer@gmail.com (remove 9 for my real email address)
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Posted By: PowWrangler
Date Posted: 06 Sep 2007 at 10:23am
Yes, there needs to be a balance. On one side, we have a very free market society that allows for loosely regulated growth in many instances, always guided by the motivation of as much profit as possible. That's fine, but for every yin there needs to be a yang, and in this example that is environmentalists, consumer groups, etc. that represent the interests of public health, sustainability, etc.
If Capitalism is left unchecked (like most libertarians would like to have it.....somehow it'll all just work itself out just fine....ya right) then we have no balance, no give and take, and the world we live in becomes degraded that much faster.
Conservation groups don't get it right all the time, but that doesn't mean they don't have a useful purpose. Let's invest more in solar, wind, and other truly sustainable energy sources. Ya, they won't power everything, but it's another resource to utilize. Let's try to get rid of the defeatist attitude that's been engrained by certain right wing lines of thought.
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Posted By: slickhorn
Date Posted: 06 Sep 2007 at 10:43am
so long as unrestrained capitalism (which equals unrestraing greed and profit motivation, in my mind) is the dominant force, we will not ever acheive a sustainable balance.
I see two problems: simple overpoluation is the major global problem. Unless we follow china's one-child rule, good luck on this one. I guess we wait for the avian flu to decimate our populations ...
the other is centralized systems. It is silly to pay for city water when you can collect and filter the rain that falls on your land.
It is silly to pay for nuclear power when you can generate so much of your own power needs on the property you own using sustainable techniques.
The solution is up to the indivudual. My goal is to be off the grid self supported by the time I'm 40.
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Posted By: Jimmy
Date Posted: 06 Sep 2007 at 10:56am
Originally posted by leifkirchoff
I defend my own ass, proudly, and do not look to party affiliation to save my ass for me.
I like to defend my ass also, though I have been to some parties where I was concerned about being able to save it. Definitely don't want to pass out at one of those parties. All in all I prefer a party where I don't have to be concerned about my ass.
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Posted By: arnobarno
Date Posted: 06 Sep 2007 at 11:28am
I think we all need some water in our rivers.
------------- arn9schaeffer@gmail.com (remove 9 for my real email address)
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Posted By: ashleygoesdisco
Date Posted: 06 Sep 2007 at 12:04pm
Posted By: PowWrangler
Date Posted: 06 Sep 2007 at 12:06pm
God forbid some thoughtful discussion takes place around here. 
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Posted By: cronar
Date Posted: 06 Sep 2007 at 1:20pm
Brian, part of the reason we buy our water from a municipality/co-op/ or whatever is they have the means to assure us that the water is safe. Epidemics like cholera and yellow fever were severly curtailed once we discovered they were a result of unsanitary water. Yeah go ahead and clean your own water. I'd rather have someone do it for me that knows what they are doing. Incidentally, and speaking from experience, if you have your own well, you do not meter how you use water. You need look no further than the Ogalla aquifer (largest in the US)that lies beneath Kansas, Nebraska and several other midwest states. There are quotas in place now, but unfortunately too little too late. The aquifer can not adequately replenish itself. And if you think individuals are immune I'll use my family as an example. My brother has his own well and runs the water whenever he feels like it. As a result he has some of the greenest grass in one of the driest places in the northern Rockies. Yep that's a good use of resources.
The sad fact is we are bad at self regulating our behavior, and unless someone does it for us, regardless of whether we agree or not, we'll screw ourselves in the end. Damn I'm agreeing with Leif on this, and I'm not republican. Anybody want to go wade down the Sky? -N
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Posted By: RemAcct2
Date Posted: 06 Sep 2007 at 1:33pm
A gem of wisdom from Eric Cartman to lighten the mood:
"Hippies. They're everywhere. They wanna save the earth, but all they do is smoke pot and smell bad. "
That said, no system works in a vacuum. Capitalism is good, but must be balanced with a framework of rules. A free market works, but only when people make correct decisions (with respect to their own best benefit), and only when a market is structured to monetize resources and impacts to the collective.
Ultimately, though, we are a free society, and must singularly put faith in individual freedom.
Two quotes from Milton Friedman ring particularly relevant:
"The existence of a free market does not of course eliminate the need for government. On the contrary, government is essential both as a forum for determining the "rules of the game" and as an umpire to interpret and enforce the rules decided on. What the market does is to reduce greatly the range of issues that must be decided through political means, and thereby to minimize the extent to which government need participate directly in the game."
and
"Underlying most arguments against the free market is a lack of belief in freedom itself." editID>leif
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Posted By: slickhorn
Date Posted: 06 Sep 2007 at 1:43pm
Originally posted by leifkirchoffA free market works, but only when people make correct decisions (with respect to their own best benefit), and only when a market is structured to monetize resources and impacts to the collective.
I think that's a good point Leif. The problem is not capatilism inherently, but rather the fact that capitalism has failed to assign values to certain things. I'll take it a step farther and say that at this point, things are so lopsided, you and I will never reasses what a corporation assigns as the value of free flowing clean water. The juggernaut is just so big at this point ....
Nick, great post. You look at it from a systemic point of view though -- whereas my point is from a individual's perspective. While not everyone could clean their own water, I can. I can also use my tap only for cooking, drinking, and bathing, and use rain runoff for watering my garden, for example. It all helps. I don't think rain of my roof is quite the sewage pit that promoted cholera epidemics though ... ;-) I grew up on a well, and we didn't waste water, but again, that's a individual choice and not something that can be relied upon.
I don't think Leif is going to agree with you about regulation being needed, that's definitely outside most libertarian agendas.
Unfortunately, we have this myth of truly free markets and interdependent free market capitalism and democracy. Given that capitalsim is dominated not by small entrepenuers but by mutlinationals, I would argue that capitalism, at this point, is actually in opposition to democracy.
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Posted By: franzhorner
Date Posted: 06 Sep 2007 at 1:51pm
Hippies everywhere?? I don't see any Hippies!! Where are all the Hippies??
Anyone who smokes lots of pot and stinks is useless, eh?
"Civilization is unbearable, but it is less unbearable at the top." -Timothy Leary
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Posted By: arnobarno
Date Posted: 06 Sep 2007 at 2:19pm
Ah, okay, I'll jump back in - since there is no water...
There was a great book written a few years ago called, "The Future of Freedom" by Fareed Zakaria. He is no conservative and, if anything is left or center-left in his political leanings. In fact, the book was recommended to me from a friend that is center-left on the political spectrum. And, I'm not here to convince anyone of anything (that never happens on a forum).
But, he argues, in a very well written book that capitalism is absolutely primary in terms of making a democracy function and establishing a democracy in the first place. The thrust of the argument is that when you have capitalism and a functioning middle class, only then do enough people have a stake in the system to make democracy work. He would argue for (free) market reforms first, democracy second.
And, again, I don't want to convince anyone of anything, but he'd say the China model of opening the markets before opening the political process will ultimately lead to a better outcome than the other way around (as has happened in Russia and arguably Iraq).
So, Brian I think you and others interested in these ideas might find it thought provoking.
------------- arn9schaeffer@gmail.com (remove 9 for my real email address)
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Posted By: PowWrangler
Date Posted: 06 Sep 2007 at 2:23pm
Pot is bad, mmkay......at least according to the reports Leif reads since he's lectured me on it already.
Can I point out to the small handful of libertarians out there that Republicans are just as apt to meddle in our lives as are Democrats. We all know there's is nothing fiscally conservative nor unintrusive about either group.
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Posted By: RemAcct2
Date Posted: 06 Sep 2007 at 2:26pm
The Republican party, like all parties contains many people, many influencers, many perspectives. The commonalities bind the party together, and unfortunatly, not all Republicans believe in small government, certainly not the one in the big office.
...Just like the fact that not all Democrats smoke pot...
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Posted By: arnobarno
Date Posted: 06 Sep 2007 at 2:40pm
As one of the small handful of Libertarians out here (or perhaps not such a small handful, keep reading), Pow has hit on the fundamental issue that we face.
I always have to make a Faustian choice at election time with respect to the current party alignment. In general, Democrats are socially liberal and fiscally liberal; Republicans socially conservative and fiscally conservative. Not saying that our current Republican administration has been particularly fiscally conservative, but, in general, these have been the alignments more or less since the end of WWII.
So, if you are fiscally conservative and socially on the liberal side (i.e. a typical Libertarian) you are left with a Faustian bargain with whichever side you choose.
I'd like to think that there are actually quite a large number of people out there that are not well represented by the political parties today and that there are a lot of fiscal conservative/socially liberal people. But, maybe I'm wrong and alone.
------------- arn9schaeffer@gmail.com (remove 9 for my real email address)
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Posted By: PowWrangler
Date Posted: 06 Sep 2007 at 3:01pm
Ronald Reagan was fiscally conservative? Orly?
Stolen from the internets:
However, by the end of Reagan's second term the national debt held by the public ballooned from 26 percent of Gross Domestic Product in 1980 to 41 percent in 1989, the highest level since 1963. By 1988, the debt totaled $2.6 trillion, due in part to both increased military spending at the end of the Cold War and growth in the federal government. The country owed more to foreigners than it was owed, and the United States moved from being the world's largest international creditor to the world's largest debtor nation.
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Posted By: cronar
Date Posted: 06 Sep 2007 at 3:08pm
Brian, you're right I took a systemic view. But then that's what I do for a living and it kind of rubs off and for some it's easier to understand. I still believe the individual can affect change however. The immediate payoff being for myself (beit wallet or feelgood) and the delayed effect being maybe to get someone else interested in it. Harvesting rain water is a start. I do that and I have one hell of a garden. And man I'd love a 10,000 gallon tank in my yard to store the water off my small shed, but I can't quite do it. Yet.
As for a free market placing value on things. We have done that with just about everything. The issue is who places the value and what that value is. Rivers are a good example. We place a high price on flowing rivers as recreationists, while other recreationists, agriculture and power generation might place a higher value for impounding the same river. All parties can make valid claims for their value and all are correct. It then comes down to which better serves the public need. And there you get into opinion which is another issue entirely and doesn't neccessarily rely on facts.
In the end, get yourself informed on both sides of an issue before making your decision.
And seriously, who wants to go paddle the Sky this weekend?
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Posted By: franzhorner
Date Posted: 06 Sep 2007 at 3:08pm
I actually really like these discussions.....
"I've left specific instructions that I do not want to be brought back during a Republican administration." - Leary
If you think pot is bad than don't turn on your radio, don't go to art
museums, and throw away all your music because most of it, NOT ALL, was
written sculpted painted and/or performed by someone who smokes and or
smoked it. (this is directed to those who think its bad mmmkay
not to winkers) Zappa is an exception along with Ted Nugent.
I believe that grass smoking is OK and maybe even good for some folks
but not all. I would recommend a heavier hallucenegen for Lief
though. He's way too smart for grass.
Hallucenegens help you realize that everything you know is in fact
learned and just because you were raised a certain way or have come to
believe certain"truths" that doesn't necessarily make them right.
(5 dried grams should do)
Back to the earlier discussion:
I personally think that the real problem with any issue in this world
is that when it comes down to it, MONEY isn't the biggest motivator,
its the ONLY motivator for change. Sustainable living will become
commonplace when the people at the top stand to gain a FINANCIAL gain
from it..period.
We can't stop making weapons and feeding our war machine because that
would fuck up the economy! (plus, how would we ever kill the killers!)
We can't just stop burning oil and use wind, solar or other novel ideas because that would fuck up the economy.
We can't protect federal lands from road building, mining and logging because, you guessed it, that would fuck up the economy!
Peace would fuck up the economy.
If you can find a way for the folks at the top to continue to stay at
the top while the world rids itself of the need for so much energy then
I think you should run for president...
Love,
Good For Nothing Long-Haired
P.S. Want to give the world and US economies a serious boost?? Legalize it!!
------------- MORE RAIN PLEASE
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Posted By: slickhorn
Date Posted: 06 Sep 2007 at 3:29pm
wow, I leave for a meeting and I come back and there are all these articulate and polite political posts. Nice posts guy. Is something wrong? ;-)
Nick, I'll have to find a copy of that text, sounds very interesting. Incidentally I consider myself solcially liberal and fiscallly conservative, perhaps that explains why I never feel at home politically anywhere. As I get older, I find myself leaning more and more libertarian.
My main problem with D's and R's is that both spout rhetoric inconsistent with their policies. I guess I feel that in my short political lifetime, the R's have managed to harm more people with their inconsistencies than the Dems.
I wonder, in an era of TV and ranting blogs, whether the kind of rational but nuanced policy arguments that really change the status quo can ever get majority support. It's hard not to wonder what the world might be like had Sept 12 been a national rallying cry for real change. The confluence of oil dependency, carbon emissions, foreign policy, and international trade forms a nexus that is rapidly hurting the US.... too bad no one will address it.
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Posted By: arnobarno
Date Posted: 06 Sep 2007 at 3:52pm
Dave, Finding a website that doesn't like Reagan isn't difficult - but that doesn't mean that he isn't a fiscal conservative. The debt held by the public is not a good way to judge whether someone was fiscally conservative or not. A better judge is to look at federal spending as % of GDP and tax revenues as a % of GDP. You can get both these numbers from the non-partisan CBO. The debt can be viewed as a proxy for future taxation (or inflation if the government decides to turn on the printing presses).
Federal spending peaked (post WWII) in Reagan's 1st term and has been on a downward trend since then through Bush #1 and Clinton and rising somewhat during GWB's presidency though still lower than the start of Clinton's presidency (yes, even with the war spending).
Federal revenue peaked (and in fact equaled the all time high set during WWII) at 20.9% of GDP during Clinton's last year in office. Contrary to popular belief, our current federal revenue (even with the Bush tax cuts) is right now equal to the post WWII average and our budget deficit (even with the war spending) is de minimis compared to post WWII deficits.
Now then, you might not like who we are taxing and how we are spending the money and would rather spend the money on other things or tax someone else (who wouldn't). And, we certainly have long term structural problems with the economy with respect to entitlements, but you need to look behind the headline numbers (and the various rants) to get a real view of where things are.
------------- arn9schaeffer@gmail.com (remove 9 for my real email address)
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Posted By: justin
Date Posted: 06 Sep 2007 at 3:56pm
I thought that this was a kayaking forum, not a political one.
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Posted By: slickhorn
Date Posted: 06 Sep 2007 at 4:00pm
this particular forum is for "Non Boating Related Message" .... besides, where's the water?
BTW Justin -- looks like we're Nahatlatch bound, we'll be at apocynum Fri and Sat nights if you're looking for a last blast up there. If a second rig comes up, we might just make the push to get on the bridge if you're interested.
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Posted By: arnobarno
Date Posted: 06 Sep 2007 at 4:04pm
Oh, and another thing, this discussion will NOT be continued on the Tieton on Saturday where there is lots of water. And, the Cookie Fairy and I will be there boating, instead of here discussing things that none of us can control. And, yes, there will be cookies instead of politics.
------------- arn9schaeffer@gmail.com (remove 9 for my real email address)
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Posted By: RemAcct2
Date Posted: 06 Sep 2007 at 4:16pm
I wish I could go this weekend. I will be at the Tieton next weekend, though.
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Posted By: PowWrangler
Date Posted: 06 Sep 2007 at 4:23pm
I'll be sea kayaking in the San Juan's myself.
Don't think anyone else participating in this conversation will be at the Tieton either, so no worries on dat.
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Posted By: tradguy2
Date Posted: 06 Sep 2007 at 4:58pm
Originally posted by leifkirchoffOr, you can just support sustainable, sensible policies which ballance the needs of society with the desire to protect nature.
If only we could agree on what constitutes a sensible policy.
------------- ... preparing for a river beating!
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Posted By: franzhorner
Date Posted: 06 Sep 2007 at 4:58pm
yee haw! the tieton! good times a coming! see you all down there....
I like learning from others' posts and appreciate the political banter as it proves we are actually thinking and that we give a hoot. This is a fine group of folk and I hope everyone knows I sincerely appreciate them as people and boaters and respect opinions!! I surely don't want my spouting off to bum anyone out. I agree that this banter belongs in the non-boating folder....
Horner
------------- MORE RAIN PLEASE
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Posted By: jondufay
Date Posted: 06 Sep 2007 at 6:54pm
holy fuck, what the fuck is this shit? to BC, all of you, right now...
------------- ahh, f--- it dude, lets go boating...
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Posted By: dave
Date Posted: 06 Sep 2007 at 8:08pm
OOOHHHH my head hurts, I cant believe I just read all this stuff, I will never get this time back in my life, I feel weary.
------------- Nomad
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Posted By: franzhorner
Date Posted: 06 Sep 2007 at 9:42pm
there should probably be warnings associated with threads like this....
------------- MORE RAIN PLEASE
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Posted By: Chuck e fresh
Date Posted: 07 Sep 2007 at 12:51am
Damn I finially have time to post and ther's so many to comment on . I would say first off politics are in most things it's sad but true, talking and discussion will change the world and alway's has, being self sufficiant is the best and only way to go. I am working towards having a home where I too can be off the grid. There are defenitly so many things to touch base on. One is that ( Southpark ) one of the best shows ever and sorry too say if your using Cartman as a back up on hating hippies, the show is an oxy-moron ! Cartman is actually a character that makes fun of the typicial middle class conservative consumer view. As are all the character's basicially so if your trying to put them down by using a quote from cartman you don't really grasp the show's true meaning. The writer's and artist's I'm sure are all for Hipiie's, alternative way's of fuel and being off the grid. But that's all just assumption and I say too you conjunction junnton, what's your function..?? And I'll have you ponder on this, "believe in yourself, question everything, time and movement are the only things that remains constant. That depends on how you set your watch of course and how often you pay attention too it !! But I don't where a watch, I JUST ALWAY'S KNOW WHAT TIME IT IS..YO! There's no time like the presant. Paddle on paddler's. I can only hope more people become independent not only in there way's of living but in thinking, researching , learning and teaching ! This web site is wicked good becuase you can see the view's of paddler's from all walk's of life and is a great way to see what people are made of. I believe that the America and places such as, ( like the Iraq and the South Africa )will make a better place for map's as long as everyone has on star and map quest Programed into there Iris's by a nano chip in all our future children. Bam! Take that Miss teen Co. Boo yeah !!!
------------- There's no such word as can't!so stop making excuses!!!!
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Posted By: Moon
Date Posted: 12 Sep 2007 at 7:08pm
Politics aside, this article was on todays front page
http://seattletimes.nwsource.com/html/localnews/2003880315_almine12.html
There has been lots of talk lately about saving the precious rivers... although this may not be premium whitewater, it's worth some attention by all. If I read correctly, they are talking about 5 earthen dams, 2 of which will be bigger than the honker in China..
check it out, talk to your senator about your opinions on either side of the argument. We live in a representative government which some believe doesn't do the best job of representing the peoples views. I think it has to start with the people speaking up until we are heard.
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