Hey folks

East fork Oly here.

Please just remember a planned portage at the final 5 is trespassing. It is
posted and there is significant damage to the land from kayak activity.
Personally I think people should get out and scout and then go back to their
boats and suck it up and run the drops. And if need be, take the easy rout on
the left on the final drop. This would help relations in my neighborhood and
these are my neighbors that own that land. Last week I noticed a pair of boaters
hiking up from the confluence to run the final drops, once again a planned
trespass. The land owners of the copper creek confluence/final 5, are tired of
kayakers tromping through their back yard and not staying on the river .

My thoughts:

Anyone who owns land next to a river needs to expect certain things.  Floods, landslides, fisherman, and YES, boaters are all likely to grace the river which no one can own.  If there is a dangerous rapid bordering your land than you should probably expect boaters to use your property to portage.  This goes double if your land borders a big rapid.  I don't know about this portage specifically or the "significant damage" that has been caused by the portaging boaters but, for this guy to suggest that people "suck it up" and run the drop is totally wrong.  There is NEVER anything wrong with portaging a drop you don't feel comfy running, even if you have to tresspass.  Any land owner who wants to be a prick about people portaging on their land better think rationally before someone runs the drop and gets hurt.  The resulting search and rescue and all involved in trying to save someone should be put on the prick land owner's head.   If they want to see their property really get "significantly damaged" just wait til they see how the fire trucks and the firemen give a crap about their lawn when they are going in to save someone. 

I am very sensitive to this as I have seen a person get shot over a property line dispute while I was on my boat in the river.  I had to endure court cases and the trauma of watching someone get blown away all because some jerks were psycho about their rights and entiltlements related to their property ownership. 

My disdain for these property owners includes Fisheries (ie Lower Wind portage around Shippards Falls), gated comunities and private land owners.

I welcome any retort from Fisheries people, boaters, and/or private land owners...

Sincerely
Franz Horner

I should probably clarify confronting someone armed does not mean they get taken down like GI's assaulting Normandy or I am sneaking up on trespassers in a manner that would be reminicent of Elmer Fudd hunting wascally wabits. It simply means I have a gun on me.

From a legal perspective, if a kayaker is hiking below the mean high water mark on a river classified as "navigable", they are not trespassing. If the river isn't classified as such, they are trespassing even as they run the river.

Of additional note, unless "no trespassing" signs are posted at the edge of the mean high water mark, there is no legal remedy for someone setting foot on the land.

Kiwi,

I don't ever "PLAN" to portage.  I make that decision when I get to the rapid.  I guess I'm good to trespass!!!

It was an unplanned portage!  It was an unplanned portage!

How many kayakers do you know that would sue a land owner because , while portaging on their land, they got hurt??  Hmmmm....

I just think people are way to uptight about what they think they are entitled to concerning their property ownership. 

The property owner who buys land that borders a river is assuming all kinds of liability in your scenario just by owning the piece of land.  I mean you can't put a fence up around the river like you would have to with a swimming pool.  I understand that everyone is afraid of being sued but, please, do you really want to trade good will and being a decent human being for the safety of not being sued by some kayakers that need to be on your land for a few minutes to get around a dangerous rapid??

I understand your being armed when you approach trespassers on your land but, you must understand, I am sensitive to these situations.  I think all too often people's emotions and ego make them do stupid things ESPECIALLY when it comes to land rights.  Poaching, hunting and 4 wheeling are MUCH MUCH different than kayakers and I don't buy that they don't know what those brightly coloured people are doing.  I would guess these land owners are curmudeons who don't like the fact that people are having fun in their back yards.  Liablility???  Come on!!!

I would like to see any precedent of a kayaker suing a property owner because they got hurt on the owners land while portaging.  I won't believe it has ever happened until I see it.

My point about the fire fighters wasn't about who's going to pay for the damage but that a big mess could be avoided by showing a little good will to your fellow man and allowing him to safely walk around a scary rapid.

Another point I was trying to make is that this guy suggests that people just "suck it up" and run the drops.  This is a dangerous attitude that should not be part of our MO on rivers with big drops like the Final 5.    IT IS ALWAYS OK TO PORTAGE A RAPID, EVEN IF YOU HAVE TO TRESPASS!!

So what if I portage on private land and they call the cops and before you know it I'm back on the river.  Are the cops really going to come and try to ticket or arrest me?  Will they try to get me at the take-out or will they jump in their cop boats and run me down?  Are there other things Police could be doing to "Protect and Serve"??

I guess if I ever find myself talking to Jonny Law about my portage on private land I can just say, "It was unplanned!", "take me to court!" , politely of course and no offense to the Fuzz out there...

Franz,

I think the liability concern is not with an injured kayaker suing, but rather a party who has been financially hit because the kayaker is injured.  I assume that's what Wiggins was referring to above.  Perhaps I owe money which now can't repay as I've been injured.  The party expecting repayment might not be able to get it out of me, but they might be able to get it out of the person responsible for my injury.  Which, in our crazy world, might in this case apparently be the landholder.  It's whack for sure. 

I definitely do plan to portage sometimes.  Or at least, I should say, I reserve the right to portage.  I don't ever put in on the Truss, for example, just assuming I will run Big Brother or BZ.  Gotta see how I'm feeling that day, how it looks, etc. 

The real issue with final five, I suspect, is the impact caused by so much use.  there's a very distinct trail there, people stop, set up for photos (guilty myself) take a pee break, or a safety break, and never ask permission or check in with the land owners. 

If it were my land, I'd be annoyed too.  Of course, I'd probably spend some saturdays with a grill and and a cooler of brews cheering on the boaters rolling through ;-)

I welcome your thoughts here Pete!

Groups should be sensitive to the land owners rights and we surely don't want to piss anyone off.  Boaters should take care here to make the portage fast with little impact, but,  there are situations where trespassing to portage is acceptable in my book....

I stated earlier that I didn't know the situation specifically.  I understand that going upriver from the EF Lewis is not OK but...I was responding to the scenario of getting to the Final 5 and being scared and needing to portage.  If the drops above are of the same difficulty I could see someone having a bad day up top and then wanting to portage the Final 5 and feeling that they couldn't because they would be trespassing.  I could see someone who got worked a couple of times upstream having comitted to the Final 5 and then getting in bigger trouble there having been worked upstream. 

My response was mostly in regard to the attitude of "suck it up and run it" which I hope we all consider a VERY BAD attitude to be taken with class V drops especially!!!  For non-boating property owners to have the same opinion is understandable, but, for a boater I think it is unacceptable.

Is there any disagreement about that?!!!

I'm sure these landowners would be fine shutting the whole creek down to boaters and I suspect that's what end they would seek if they could....

Look at the Sunset Falls put-in on the Skykomish!  Here is a world class put-in at the base of an amazing falls that the local community has shut down to the public because they own it!

In tort law, the liability here is "attractive nuisance". The way it would be pursued is: I saw a trail, I slipped, I sue the landowner. This is, of course, ridiculous, but it is a winnable case. Sometimes, even no trespassing signs aren't enough, and that is why one must have a liability policy if they own land.

As a practical rule, staying on the shore of the river is ok, leaving to go up on someone's property isn't. When I have had to do it in the past, I have gone to the house, knocked, and explained (and apologized for) my presence on their land.

I'm glad there are people like Oly to fight for access issues.  It is probably a thankless job to have to deal with property owners who are pissed about portaging kayakers.  I don't mean any disrespect to him at all but, I take serious issue with the "suck it up and run it" attitude.  I understand that property owners have their rights and concerns but there is a time when simple human decency trumps the risk of being sued.

If you just moved here and have class 5 skills from the East Coast and pick up a copy of Bennett's book and decide to run Copper Creek I don't see any reason why you would think it is not OK to portage the Final 5.

The land owners need to understand that not everyone is tuned into their particular sensitivity to this particular spot.

I too pick up trash when I can.  One time Aaron and I filled up 2 garbage bags with everything from diapers to beer bottles from a put-in on the Sky.  Why do boaters get credit for trashing places when its obvious the partier, fisherman crowd is usuallly more to blame?

River clean-ups seem to do nothing for us.....

Boaters need to do more to give us a positive reputation in the communities around rivers.  Somehow it seems most difficult in the EF Lewis drainage and the SF Sky area....

My point being, at least WA landowners don't own the streambed under navigable streams.

One other thing that I think is important is that we as kayakers probably want to be as upstanding as possible in avoiding trespassing/landowner situations. For one, to respect property rights, but also so that we can be respected as a group when AW etc fights for recreational releases and dam removal. Who wants to be on the side of a bunch of disrespectful trespassers, even if most of the community is not involved? It is hard enough to gain respect from the Forest Service and other entities - re: the success Trout Unlimited has had in blocking kayaking access to the Upper Chattooga, and other negotiations that more directly impact the PNW. This is all part of a bigger picture. Local Fox News could jump all over the story and blow it up like crazy.

Anyway, I seem to agree with both sides - portaging is always an option and sometimes is totally necessary (wood in the Final 5, maybe?). But also, no one wants unwanted strangers on their land. What if that landowner get so pissed he puts up a fence? Tough call.   

As much as I (seem to) like getting worked up about this stuff, I actually see both sides. Yeah, there could be wood in the Final 5 that wasn't there a week ago.
But I've been there and you do have to pretty much tresspass to portage. And like it or not, our country has very convoluted and wacky laws and litiguous tendencies. I don't like this specific situation down there, but it is what it is. I also can see the property owner's side, even if I agree with your sentiments, Franz, about goodwill and all that.

The rub for me is that if you read the guidebook description of this run, Bennett warns about this very scenerio, so it's not a new one. YET I KNOW that there are a lot of complacent, inconsiderate kayakers among us. SORRY for telling it how it is. They want to take a bunch of stupid photos and make a bunch of noise, DRAG their boats because they aren't man enough, woman enoufgh, or considerate enough to carry them, ect. So many people stuff 10-12 person groups down creeks barely big enough to accomadate 4 or 5. Large groups exponentially increase impact in forests and exponetially increase noise, and the duration of their passing.

There's NO EXCUSE for running Copper Creek and claiming that you were unaware of
the private property owner's issues there. Part of me wnats to say F%*# it and agree with OLY on this one. SUCK IT UP, punk. or find another creek to run. There are plenty
from Hood River to Squamish, from La Push to Wenatchee. If you really want that run, maybe you should plan on running the final 5. (in full disclosure, I portaged when I was there, and I do stop short of actually wanting to defend the "suck it up" stance) There's a waterfall or two upstream, but the rest is rather ordinary. Plenty of better runs elsewhere. Why do kayakers feel THEY have some entitlement to tromp through private property to "run" whatever they want?

To close, I don't fully agree with the "suck it up" attitude, but then, I do see all sides. If you must go in there, go in small groups, be VERY quiet, maybe camo yourself, and just keep it on the downlow. Or better yet, "suck it up"! No one's forcing you to go in there, and there's plenty of paddling everywhere else.