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arnobarno
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  Quote arnobarno Replybullet Posted: 28 Nov 2007 at 9:01am
Originally posted by The OAC

there are places we shouldn't build (looking at you, ...

Originally posted by The OAC


Who's trash talking? 

That wasn't trash talk??  Maybe just a bad joke.  Not important anyway.  I'll stay on point.

I'm not stating we should bet the house on a bluebird.  That was an example.

But, I'm not the one making value laden statements about our lifestyles.  You use words like excessive, "warped group psychology," etc.  It sounds more to me that you want to change our lifestyle because you disagree with it - regardless of GW - as much as you want to solve the problems of GW.

And, this, to me, clouds the debate.  If GW is a problem, it shouldn't matter if it was caused by man or not.  It shouldn't matter if it was caused by our "warped group psychology that drives consumerism" or not.  It shouldn't matter if it is caused by our "aggressive lifestyles" or not.  So, it is difficult to have a serious discussion when it veers towards punishment vs. solutions.  If you want to punish as much as find solutions, you evaluate your solutions in that context.  If all you want to do is find solutions, it is a very different discussion.

I know, Tom, that this is the way you feel.  But, Jeff, the vibe I get from you is very different.  Am I mistaken?

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tradguy2
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  Quote tradguy2 Replybullet Posted: 28 Nov 2007 at 9:59am

Arn, I may be wrong here but it seems to me you are making two arguments that are somewhat contradictory.  If I understand you correctly you believe that we can not accurately predict the future and that we should be skeptical of computer models and scientists who do so. 

On the other hand your CBA assumes 2 things about the future.  First, that the problem is likely to be less significant (rather than more) and second, that science will solve the problem.  It seems incongruent to me to simultaneously base your CBA on assumptions about the future when you do not believe that the future can be accurately predicted.  I prefer a more conservative approach. 

Also, I am not particularly pessimistic about the ability of science to solve problems.  I am just not willing to place all my eggs in that basket.  It would for example be a mistake to smoke cigarettes based on a belief that there will be a cure for lung cancer sometime in the future.  

Also, I think it might be worthwhile to review the fallacies of presumption found here:   http://logicalfallacies.info/

I find it useful to reference these occasionally particularly when making predictions/assumptions about the future.  

Also Arn, I agree that Jeff's statements are value laden.  While we should not pass judgement on the behavior (whether it is good or bad in the moral sense is indeed irrelevant) we do need to know if it has caused the problem at hand because if it has, we need to modify that bahavior.  I think Jeff's response was overly emotional but accurate in the sense that we are not changing our behavior bacusse we are looking at the situation from a short term ecenomic  perspective. 
... preparing for a river beating!     
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  Quote The OAC Replybullet Posted: 28 Nov 2007 at 10:21am

A quick diversion to address my statment on New Orleans, which was not an attempt at humor or a jab but a response to Arn's earlier statment quoted here...

"How much land can you protect with how many $$$?  How many people foolishly build in flood plains today - that is, regardless of global warming?  How much money do we foolishly spend to bail out those people or encourage people to settle there?"
 
It is my belief that a government in a developed country that allows people to live in a place like the low lying areas of New Orleans is negligent, and rebuilding after a disaster should not occur without serious modification to the previous plan (ie reestablishment of wetlands, limiting development to areas above sea level).  This is not in conflict with the quoted statement, but I think the quoted statement ignores the plight of the developing world.
 
The people at greatest risk to the effects of GW live in the developing world.  Those countries lack the budgets and infrastructure to protect or move the millions of people at risk.  Hence a need to distinguish between people who have the ability to choose where they live (the residents of New Orleans) and those who do not (the residents of the developing world).
The OAC is a private username and is not connected with the good folks at the OAC kayak shop, who are in no way responsible for ranting, soap boxing, or mud slinging conducted under this name.
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arnobarno
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  Quote arnobarno Replybullet Posted: 28 Nov 2007 at 12:12pm
Tom,
My statements aren't contradictory.  My CBA isn't dependent on science coming through for us and I am willing to accept an expected scenario with respect to forecasts for the purposes of having a discussion on where to spend money.

I simply want to look at the predicted effects - irrespective of causes - and determine how best to mitigate those effects.  So, talking about disease, flooding, etc. is all fair game.  Let's put all that on the table and say how do we effectively deal with it.  My supposition is that there are usually more cost effective ways of dealing with the effects than what has been proposed.

So, for example, with respect to flooding in the 3rd world, I would argue that wealth is more important than sea level.  I say this because dikes and levees, barriers, etc. are relatively cheap investments - even in the 3rd world.  But, if you take actions that limit economic development - especially in the 3rd world - you may be making it difficult to afford that cheap protection.

I think part of the problem with the discussion is that I don't view our current climate as a good thing or a bad thing - just a state.  Just like I don't view our lifestyles with a moral judgment.

So, when I talk about CBA or GW, I just want to talk about effects and how best to manage those effects.  And, unfortunately, a lot of the discussion is often driven in more of a "purity of essence" way (not from you Tom, just in general).  Knowing the cause is interesting and important because modifying the cause can be one mechanism for cost effectively managing the effect.  But, ultimately if the effect is the issue, the cause doesn't matter.

And, Jeff, I am glad that you are passionate about your beliefs - that is great and that is what I admire most about the people in the environmental movement.  Unfortunately, that passion is what often clouds judgment - which is what I admire least.  So, it is a double edged sword.
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  Quote Ryan Replybullet Posted: 28 Nov 2007 at 2:14pm
You guys should seriously shut up, get a life, and GET BACK TO WORK!!!

Next...
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  Quote The OAC Replybullet Posted: 28 Nov 2007 at 2:14pm
Fair enough, though I think the passion has come from both sides of this argument.  I'm going to end my posting on this thread with one final comment...
 
It was thought in certain quarters that the Clean Air Act would bankrupt industry and lead to our economic undoing.  That didn't happen.  It seems equally likely that industry, and the developed world, can take our net carbon export to 0 without too much difficulty and a little encouragement.
The OAC is a private username and is not connected with the good folks at the OAC kayak shop, who are in no way responsible for ranting, soap boxing, or mud slinging conducted under this name.
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  Quote The OAC Replybullet Posted: 28 Nov 2007 at 2:15pm
Originally posted by Ryan

You guys should seriously shut up, get a life, and GET BACK TO WORK!!!

Next...
 
Hey now, who's the one reading this...
The OAC is a private username and is not connected with the good folks at the OAC kayak shop, who are in no way responsible for ranting, soap boxing, or mud slinging conducted under this name.
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  Quote tradguy2 Replybullet Posted: 28 Nov 2007 at 4:58pm
It sounds like our primary difference is this.  I believe prevention is more cost effective than mitigation and you beleive the opposite. 
Perhaps you will change your mind after you read Six Degees, (which, for those of you who do not know, describes the likely consequnces of 1,2...5,6 degrees of global warming). 
... preparing for a river beating!     
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  Quote arnobarno Replybullet Posted: 28 Nov 2007 at 5:09pm
Effect prevention or effect mitigation, my view is simply to do what is most cost effective.  My guess is that it will be a combination of both.

But, where is the rain?  Has it all boiled away already?  Can we get some global warming this weekend because without it, I may have a hard time convincing Deborah to boat?!

OOPS! - Ryan, can I post this??

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