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chipmaney
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  Quote chipmaney Replybullet Posted: 29 Sep 2013 at 7:42am
excellent insights, chris. back deck is fine as long as you are in the box. those types of strokes/moves are advanced techniques that are difficult to master and required serious muscular conditioning, studly! in the end, i agree the best boaters can roll from any position: the omni-roll, both greenland style and whitewater. i still say you have never rolled tethered to a walrus though!

excellent advice about sitting position, too, that is something that is not discussed very much and took me a long time to figure out. i finally dialed it thanks to some expert advice from jp. i tend to think less about my seat area and more about slightly lifting my knees, which seems to keep me in the right posture, core engaged with the boat. this is especially useful advice in an IK.

blade angle is important only in that you need to drive it through the water to the surface and keep it there. i agree that clearly the paddle is superfluous since advanced kayakers can roll without it.

in the end, everybody's different, and unfortunately we don't get as much formal learning in this sport as we should. feel free to give me a tutorial any time chris!
sitting all alone on a mountain by a river that has no end
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Mr.Grinch
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  Quote Mr.Grinch Replybullet Posted: 29 Sep 2013 at 8:53pm
Originally posted by FLUID


#3 the blade angle is a seperate problem from the roll itself and should be addressed seperately. im not saying its not important, but if you have a good hip snap and understanding of the hip and head relationship its rarely the problem.  if your having problems with the roll and your blade and paddle go back to the hip snap or revisit the roll with the paddle. in my humble opinion theres teaching the roll , then theres teaching the roll with the paddle which are two different classes. most of the time the blade angle doesnt stunt the person with a bomber hip snap and hand roll but  someone with perfect blade angle and sweep have a hard time with a shotty hip snap trying to roll..again the eskimos... the roll is not done with the paddle the paddle is just a guide to sweep your boddy throught the water so you can ...... gain leverage and snap your hips. you should feel little to no resistance on your blade or tweaking in your wrist from blade feather because your most likely using a right hand control paddle and its all the same anyway no matter what the feather, 0, 15,30,45.  unless your rolling on the left with a right control paddle and your right handed.  


Yeah, I thought I was differentiating enough talking about the inactive blade/wrist combo, but to clarify:

Chris is of course right about how the blade should slice, not pressure, the water as one rolls (at least in sweep type rolls for sure, back deck included. C-C systematically provokes a little more pressure).

What I thought I was presenting thoughts on was my opposite arm, the inactive blade (if I'm rolling/bracing with my left blade, my right hand has to twist to compensate for appropriate feather angle in the paddle shaft). I'm sure this varies with physiology, but for me, the 45* paddle I used had my wrists, which are obviously connected to elbows and shoulders, at odds in my inactive arm (the one controlling the blade out of the water), and I found this stressful when not only managing the full paddle under water, but also when switching quickly during rapid cartwheels. As said, everyone has different bodies, and I like the physical symmetry I've gained with a zero degree feather. Am I a better paddler? Never was a good one anyway, but my body feels more similar in executing rolls, braces, cartwheels, etc. on either side. I can feel a difference in stresses when I use my old paddle. This effect is small, but may be worse for others, and of less cosequence to others as well. All part of another bell curve.

I've used left hand control paddles and adjusted quite well. But paddling isn't, or shouldn't be about on-side and off-side rolling/bracing because like skiing, we are in bodily symmetry to our motion of travel, generally. Unlike surfing, snowboarding, and skateboarding where there are marked differentiations to bodily motions toe-side vs heel-side.

To me, there should be no such thing as an on-side and off-side roll. When I taught myself to roll, I learned both sides because I wanted to fully teach myself the body mechanics, and breaking down what my right handed roll was doing was tantamount to understanding what my left handed roll was doing, and vice-versa.

Anyway, I noticed reduced stress in my upper body while using a low (in my case zero) feather while executing many more complex manouvers, not to mention body mechanic semmetry and more ready speed when switching sides for similar functions using a lower feather angle. YMMV, but I just thought I'd throw it out there. I always make the effort to let my core and lower body do the roll, with my active blade just the guide for body mechanics (slicing vs sculling when rolling).

Hey, I'm ever the student, so I'm apt to gain information that I can benifit from.
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jP
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  Quote jP Replybullet Posted: 30 Sep 2013 at 8:45am
I'm slouching right now, in fact!
Posture is a key element to any aspect of kayaking- goid to bring that one up, Grinch.

I struggle with it too. There are times when I automaticly seem to have better posture, sitting more upright, and other times when I struggle all the way down river trying to stay in good posture, and wonder why I'm boating like sh*t.
Like Fluid said: keeping that lumbar jammed up against your back band, sitting on the back of your thighs, still having good contact w/ knees and balls of feet.

Another point to add to that posture is having your pelvic bone slightly canted forward.

Sometimes when approaching a rapid I wiggle into that position a little deeper and then I immediately feel like I'm sitting a little taller and straighter. I usually feel more stable, and feel the extra power that my core transmits to the blade with each torso twist.

Good video, Doggie, of the guy out at Deception Pass- big sh*t out there he was playing around with.
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FLUID
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  Quote FLUID Replybullet Posted: 01 Oct 2013 at 4:12am
Mr. Grinch
"Yeah, I thought I was differentiating enough talking about the inactive blade/wrist combo, but to clarify:

Chris is of course right about how the blade should slice, not pressure, the water as one rolls (at least in sweep type rolls for sure, back deck included. C-C systematically provokes a little more pressure).

What I thought I was presenting thoughts on was my opposite arm, the inactive blade (if I'm rolling/bracing with my left blade, my right hand has to twist to compensate for appropriate feather angle in the paddle shaft).To me, there should be no such thing as an on-side and off-side roll.
Hey, I'm forever the student, so I'm apt to gain information that I can benifit from.[/QUOTE] "
 
 
 good quote Mr Grinch.. I'm the forever student as well I think its a good way to look at kayaking for longevity and personal growth. I'm still watching the young studs learning new tricks trying to perfect every stroke with grace and style learning new things each time I go out from myself and all the people I paddle with. I'm always watching and learning....
 
 To sum it up: the inactive blade should be just what it is.. inactive. you will have issues if you try to incorporate it in the roll. using the non rolling hand or (inactive blade) causes all sorts of issues for the roll. punching arm, diving paddle, trying to control the blade with both hands..... let the inactive hand loose, forget about it and focus on the hand connected to the blade that is sweeping and leading. when you watch text book rolls when they pop up there inactive hand is open and not even connected to the paddle.
 
 agreed you should have no on side or off side, rolling your kayak should feel natural on both sides and from any position. if your rolling on the right your right hand leads the way with your left letting go and becomes inactive. if your rolling on the left your left hand leads the way no matter what feather you have and that hand becomes the control hand and the other becomes the inactive hand or blade.  Therefore paddle feather is not much of an issue, more personal preference.
 


Edited by FLUID - 01 Oct 2013 at 4:38am
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