I've been paddling for a couple of years and feel like I'm finally reaching a new level of confidence and skill.  I started in a Nomad 8.5 and have been paddling lately in a Dagger GT.  I beleive that my skill development may have been hindered by paddling the large, round Nomad.  Since paddling the GT, which is still large, but has edges, Ive been learning how to be more accurate with my strokes, positioning, bracing, etc.  I want to move towards a playboat, now, but am unsure if I should go for a dedicated playboat or something more transitional like some of the river runner/playboat options.  I thought the Varun looked like a good option, but didn't get to demo it at the PP Ball and living in Enumclaw makes it hard to get up to Kirkland to demo anything from Charles.  Would love advice on:

For suggestions on specific boat models it light help to find someone of your size, weight, and build who is an avid paddler. Everyone is uniquely built and different sizes of the same model aren't always accurately scaled.

JP, Thanks for the thoughts.  I see your point about the range of boats in the quiver. My current intent is to improve my paddling skills overall.  I don't know that I'll ever be doing loops and other areials, but when I watch the playboaters on the rivers I want to develop the skills I see them use reflexively.  My thought is to move more towards the aggressive playboat end of the spectrum, but in steps.  Also, I intend to keep my GT as my creeker as long as it holds up (its knida old). 

Aaron, this has been my experience. I started out playboating and did so exclusively for about 7 or 8 years. Worked my way up to newer moves over the years. Then got into creeking more. I now creekboat waaay more than I playboat and these are my observations about my own paddling.

Playboating gave me a very strong core and strong shoulders. It also gave me the comfort and ability to snap off rolls the first time pretty much anywhere in about any situation. Why? Playboating taught me 2 basic things, repetitively. How to roll, no matter which way I flip, off and on side rolls - via repitition. THouands upon thousands of rolls on all type of features. I found this useful later on creeks. Second, it taught me very precise boat control as I started running tougher rapids and runs. I ran Tumwater exclusively in a playboat for years and pretty much never flipped.

Playboating gave me very powerful core muscles and taught me to be very calm when I was upside down, mainly because I was upside down a lot playboating vs riverrunning/creeking. As I progressed into creeking, I was nervous, but rarely if ever flipped. I attribute this to A: having precise boat control, in a bigger creek boat, and B having very powerful core muscles from playboating so much. I also noticed I had better lines than most of the people I was creeking with, although I was more scared than they were, simply because I was new to creeking.

Transistioning to creeking was a slow process for me because I viewed class V, at the time, as totally crazy. The first time I saw pics of Robe Canyon on AW's site I thought it was freakin NUTS!! And that the guys doing it were bound to die probably sooner than later. No way would I ever run Robe. That's what I felt then. Obviously I have a different opinion now, but that was my comfort level as I was learning the sport.

As I progressed into creeking I learned new things and developed more tools to add to my whitewater arsenal. I would also like to point out that I NEVER had an agenda as I got into creeking. I just wanted to have fun and check it out. The first time I ran the Cooper I was pretty terrified and got out of my boat to scout every drop. I needed to look at it for myself. That's me and that is what I did to be comfortable. I needed to be comfortable to be in there and I resided to the fact that if I wasn't comfortable I wasn't going to do it. I still abide by that rule I made for myself. I will always walk it if I'm not 'feeling' it.

With this growing confidence and ability I started doing harder runs and noticed that I STILL never or rarely flipped throughout entire runs. First time down the Little White, never flipped. First dozen or so times down Robe, never flipped. First times down Top Tye, never flipped. Other runs have similar stories. I attribute that to the things I learned playboating a lot and my rule of not running it if I wasn't feeling it. My first run down the Little White I walked 4 drops, as an example. One other thing was working on my roll. After flipping so many times in so many different ways I felt I had a very real sense of what was going on and could visualize three dimensionally what was actually happening as I flipped and how I would roll, so I would commit to rolling in certain scenarios, seemingly reflexively, because I had such precise control and very distinct knowledge of how powerfully the water was pushing against my edges. I knew I would come right up and how to make that happen very easily and QUICKLY. I wanted to come up fast the first time.

Flipping on Jefferson Creek was one of my prime examples to myself. I flipped in the beginning of the run and immediately came up, just like I was practicing my roll in the pool. It's a real confidence booster when situations like that happen and you're able to prove these things to yourself, especially when your buddies flip in the same spot on the same run, swim and walk out.

Further, since I've been running creeks waaay more these last few years, my playboating has slacked way off and I've noticed my lightning fast snappy roll has diminished as well as my core strength. It's simple mathematics. Roll thousands of times less per year and those particular muscles get weaker with less range of motion, simply from not getting used. It's a simple fact.

My suggestion? Playboat at least as much as you creekboat and you will be a SOLID paddler. Playboating can be done on flatwater or in a pool, if you don't have the time or inclination to drive all the way to the river. There is a lot of flatwater in this region, so be creative. You can be your own best friend, or worst enemy in your paddling career. It's your choice. Hopefully this all helps. Rule number one. Have fun. Rule number two, challenge yourself within your comfort zone. Three, rinse and repeat.

Just wondering, why do you want a full on play boat if you won't be doing loops and other areials?   Why not go for a boat like the EZG or Project where you can still do tons of play moves?

I guess I have been leaning toward the EZG end of the playboat spectrum, but wanted to get what Brett got out of his learning in a playboat and just wondered if I could get that from that type of boat or if I should go to the aggressive, short, stubby playboat.  I started in a big boat which has given me enough skill and knowledge to know that I can't keep progressing like I want to if I stay in a big boat.  Creeking is where I want to go with my paddling.  That's what gets me excited about the sport.  I have come to realize, though,  that I will not be able to step up unless I can do what Brett describes in his learning curve. 

The project is totally a full on play boat, and as waterwacko mentioned there are now various types of playboats. I would not call them Park Boats as much as I would call them Feature Specific Boats.

IE the Molan would be more of a Hole Boat , whilst the project is more of a wave boat. Some parks like Glenwood at high water would be a project style wave while at lower water would be more of a molan style wave.

The biggest difference is that for a newer playboater your going to be looking at surfing and playing as you go down a river, not like your going to drive up to skook for a few days although you might (be alot cooler if you did!) but really if you running down a river the shorter hole boats are not going to surf as many waves and are going to be harder to catch on the fly stuff, whilst the longer boats are going to be harder to surft or play on shorter or steeper waves (ie perling ends and flushing) it is a combination that you will have to determine for yourself.

The easiest solution is:
buy 3 playboats : 1 for surfing waves, 1 for hole play, and 1 for down river fun.
buy 1 river runner for general river running not play as much as attainment and slalom
buy 3 creekers: 1 for big water, 1 for steeper gradient and 1 for racing in long classes
buy 2 rafts: 1 for r2ing, and 1 for rowing so when your on big overnighters you have a place to store all those boats.
buy 1 innertube: because on hot days nothing beats floating with a wet caboose
buy 1 squirtboat: you really should have 2 but you really only need 1
buy 1 canoe: because if you have all of the boats above it is really the last thing to add into your quiver to become the all encompassing river master

and then make sure your garage is big enough... if not I would recommend moving, and you might consider looking for a place near the river....

Paddles, helmets, and all that jazz can be left to another thread because I think this is enough to stimulate conversation for a while.

Aaron-

Keep the Nomad. Any of the above posts who recommend this are spot on, IMO.

Right about now PPeeps who know me on this forum would predict me to side with WA Boater rather than Water Wacko. They would be correct. But still, while Bret may indeed be Wacko, he does have many valid points as he espouses the church of the playboat. His skill as a paddler speaks for itself. When I see him capsize on a class V run, he always rolls up rather instantly.

But like Wa Boater, I come from a now ancient era of much longer boats, and the paddling style typified by them is not in vogue, yet still is an asset to creeking: driving a boat to stay on your line. You can float into a lot of stuff and that saves energy, but when you drive a boat hard you can change the shapes of the features you cross over: move whitewater out of your way.

There are more then a few ways to skin a cat (sorry, Irene :).

Thats why I advocate 3 boats. But keep the Nomad. I could go boat something w/ you and share some clues that will help you leverage the Nomad's design. You could walk away with a new appeciation of its capabilities. I could also list some famous poster childs who all rock the Nomad, as well as some lesser know locals who are bad asses in their own right. Still, its not for everyone.

Btw James: he also needs a Shredder, a Slalom boat, and a Saltyak!

On another note, I remember reading something Dane Jackson talked about in an interview. He said that his dad wouldn't let him creek until he had a solid brace on both sides, and essentially never needed to roll. Remember, a roll is just a brace that failed...

So, I guess I'm trying to assess my learning style and take in all of the advice posted here.  I know there are world class paddlers who only ever sat in a playboat to prove they could be successful.  Meanining...it probably isn't necessary to get a playboat to get really good at paddling a creekboat.  Makes sense.   I guess I see the skills that I want to develop (better bracing, more proficient rolls of varied kinds, comfort in holes, etc.) demonstrated more because I see playboaters doing those things a lot on the rivers I currently run.  The only creeking I get to see is usually clips of the good lines and the guys who make it look easy (although the latest carnage post on PP was great).  I think, based on my learning style, I would benefit from running the same rivers I have been running, but in a boat that challenges my comfort level and my skills.  I know that I can make these rivers a lot harder than I make them right now because I take most of the easier lines.  It just seems like a next step is running the lines I know in a boat I don't.

Don't worry, Bigwah- it's ok to piss people off on this forum- (trust me I have a LOT of experience with that )

Seriously, though- you're points are as valued as anyone else's and the fact that we have so many diverse opinions on such a narrow realm of focus (even the widest Washington river is still relatively narrow) is reason to celebrate. It means we aren't slaves to the machine (yet).

I liked reading Danimal and Brett's hindsight about their paddling journeys. Danimal (tiziak) talking about how his preferences have changed, for example. Figurin out what makes boats different is part of the fun, and partly why the sport will never stagnate, imo. Endless subtle tweaks can radicly alter how boats perform.

Bottom line is that if it is a whitewater boat, and it floats, it'll work. Obviously when PPeeps launch a thread like this though they'd rather have a 'flood' of responses than just one person's reply- so we're fortunate to have this forum.

Regardless of personal preference (Creekboatn vs. Playboatn vs. All the other whitewater modalities that are not outmoded, just inconvienient for the industry to manufacture and market to a teeny tiny demographic), for me personally paddling every different catagory of boat I paddle (Creekboat, Playboat, "Longboat", Slalomboat, Saltyak, ect.) teaches me how to paddle the other one better.

Here's an example: you cited the EZG. That's proven to be a popular design over the years that isn't a flash-in-the-pan like so many boat designs come n go. It sticks around. People like it and praise it.
Me? I'm not an avid playboater because it takes too much dedication. I'm in the "can't teach n old dog new tricks" catagory. Its much easier for me to just go creek wherever I want. It's routine.
But I can look at any boat and reasonably determine what a design will do for me without paddling it, more or less. Got a good deal on an Ezg so I bought it. Started paddling it for awhile n figured it out (somewhat), but when the Wenatchee is running big, I still like the 9'+ Diablo for surfing big open waves.
The thing is, 'lil EZG taught me how to find the playboat that is hidden within El Diablo's design. (Kinda- Rob or Darren could really rip the playboat right out of El Diablo- I suck at playboatn so I can only scratch its surface). I found I can hone some playboatn technique in 'lil EZG and then transfer it to El Diablo where before I could barely flatspin it. Its hard to do that in a long boat which is why playboats really took off: The Jackson kids can blow our minds with flavor of the week tricks, while "the masses" can easily do flatspins like they never could back in the long boat era.

I don't know if this post makes sense. Benjamin Franklin would not understand all this bullsh*t, but he'd be intrigued to read all of our passionate opinions regarding our recreational activity (I used to boat on the Potomac w/ Ben Franklin). Gil Scott Heron would prolly just get pissed n start rappin "Whitie On The Moon". But I don't care because paddling keeps me from goin postal. Great topic, regardless. Wish people discussed more boat design more often.

well i guess i did piss off tizak but hey  what ya gona do