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Posted: 20 Dec 2008 at 6:00pm |
Man, you act like you are teaching me a lesson...
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RemAcct2
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Posted: 20 Dec 2008 at 6:08pm |
Paul - snowyacking in Seattle? That doesn't sound safe... Then again, neither does being a pedestrian in downtown seattle with the crazy drivers in the snow.
David - in regards to your last post...you (everyone, for that matter) has much they can learn from JP. Listen to your elders.
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jP
Rio Banditos
Diddle Fuerte Diablo !
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Posted: 20 Dec 2008 at 6:11pm |
Paul, you are entitled to your opinion, and I'm not going to judge you (for running a 100+' waterfall) on the way you personally decide to craft your river experience. But you gotta see how silly you come off from my own perspective. Your feats and stunts dropping those waterfalls is WAY more hazardous (in MY opinion).
The point is, to each his (or her) own. Ok? I don't knock the hazards and risks associated with paddling (under ANY conditions)-- I'm knocking KTW's sophmoric encapsulation of those risks, but mostly the HIGH and MIGHTY tone.
Again: The point:
Kayaking is a risky sport. PERIOD. If you don't have the ability to evaluate what is or is not appropriate for your own personal skill level, you (hypothetical"you") need a different activity. Septimus, Leif, and myself were completely safe out there. Everyone paddled compitantly. Why do we have to be put in some sensatioalized position where we have to defend ourselves? I'll tell you why: Because one person feels it's ok to project their fears on us, and then others leap to his defense.
Well you can also die on the Sky on a warm summer day. You people miss the point.
Jesus christ this is like my swim on the Sky all over again. Didn't anyone learn anything from THAT community discussion? I see all kinds of people get in over their heads on FITW, ROBE, ICICLE-- But because it's in some sanctioned parameters, it's somehow ok-- Even though they risk MY safety chasing after them and rescuing them and their shit. All part of the adventure though, isn't it? If you don't like adventure, no one's making you paddle.
BTW, Paul, Snow Yakking in the Streets? Sounds unsafe. I don't think you should risk it. You might get hit by a Fed Ex truck or a tour bus that's headed for the retaining wall above I-5.
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PaulGamache
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Posted: 20 Dec 2008 at 6:12pm |
.....to be clear I've paddled w/ Dave or "Kayak the World" and he is
definitely a SOLID boater. More so than a lot of the people yelling about how offended they are. I look forward to paddling w/ him again to
not only improve my skills but to follow his lines down any run
anywhere.
Take his advice as a compliment to the fact that he doesn't want to see
you or anyone else die on the river. I hope that where ever I go in
life people like Dave are there to be a voice of reason, even if they sling insults and disrespect towards me.
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27/320 & 1 bootie
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jP
Rio Banditos
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Posted: 20 Dec 2008 at 6:13pm |
Ok, KTW, I'm done spewing venom. But you do have a lot to learn. We all do. But we can only be willing to learn for ourselves.
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dave
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Posted: 20 Dec 2008 at 6:19pm |
wow, I got to get cought up here, alot of reading!
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Nomad
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jP
Rio Banditos
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Posted: 20 Dec 2008 at 6:21pm |
Yeah Paul, well that sounds reasonable and good. I'm trying to close this discussion off, but I'm human, and as likely to want the Last Word as anyone.
One morel to take away from this deteriorating disscussion is that we all Kayak to have fun. And we should be kayaking also to enjoy the company of our fellow paddlers. Kinda hard to do that while we are sitting here insulting each other, huh?
Tell you what I'm going to do. I'm going to post a trip report about this day on the river. Because, (and I admit my own guilt) this discussion has been allowed to overshadow what and incredible day on the river it was. It really was fine. For those with sufficient skill and gear and preparation (including logistics), days like today can be rich with wonder and beauty. Can we discuss that? I hope so. So if you're interested in that, rather than all this stupid shit, please read it, and I'll share what we saw today, and how we made the trip as safe and fun as it was...
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PaulGamache
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Posted: 20 Dec 2008 at 6:27pm |
JP the point: Running big drops I am aware of the risk and dangers and
accept them. I think what Dave was getting at was that everyone should
think of the sky as a class V (VI) run today because of the increased
hazards and not treat this like a run of the mill run down the sky. Posting on a community forum where anyone and everyone can read it may encourage those not prepared for such consequences to engage in such a risk. If you want we can settle this w/ some good ole WWF in the Shed again
I agree snow kayaking in Seattle tomorrow will be far more dangerous then
your sky run today...but I bet it's going to be one hell of a time!
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27/320 & 1 bootie
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PaulGamache
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Posted: 20 Dec 2008 at 6:28pm |
BTW kegger at Hawthorne's tonight...don't tell him I posted this
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27/320 & 1 bootie
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dave
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Posted: 20 Dec 2008 at 6:30pm |
Originally posted by leifkirchoff
Paul - snowyacking in Seattle? That doesn't sound safe... Then again, neither does being a pedestrian in downtown seattle with the crazy drivers in the snow.
David - in regards to your last post...you (everyone, for that matter) has much they can learn from JP. Listen to your elders. Are you talking to me Leif? I actually have been boating since you were in diapers! And JP is not my elder, I may be older than him even though I don't look it! So there!
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Nomad
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dave
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Posted: 20 Dec 2008 at 6:32pm |
Oh, i didnt know the KTW was a Dave too....
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Nomad
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Tobin
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Posted: 20 Dec 2008 at 6:54pm |
Holy Fing WOW!!
I am pretty sure I woke up this mornign and was able to wipe my own ass???
However that stated, I appreciate and listen to the advice from anyone willing to give it.
Thank You
I agree with KTW, and his assessment of the dangers, and I also agree with everyones right to make the decision for themselves. We are free to make individual choice.
The part of this thread that I find the most distressing is that many people felt it is a place to posture about their abilities and why others should listen to them??
WTF?? Here lets just drop trow and see who's is bigger.
Is it that being a competant kayaker and willing to help others isn't enough? Now people have to be recognized for their contributuion? How many years they have been paddling somehow makes them a better person? Dicks grow with paddling years??
I am not discounting anyone's opinion, just mocking your self serving manner of presenting it!
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Sure?
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RemAcct2
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Posted: 20 Dec 2008 at 6:55pm |
Dave - was addressing that comment to Mr. Spiegel, not you.
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James
Admin
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Posted: 20 Dec 2008 at 6:56pm |
I was just trying to help each side see the others view before it went crazy... I don't think it ever got crazy ... good job guys ... and before I sign off for a short weekend posting hiatus, I would like to mention two things with a closing question.
1. Encapsulation was used 3 times so far but I used it first. 2. I had more big words than anyone else, and walrus blubber really is extremely flammable.
Is there a greenland roll with burning fat that has to stay lit? (I can't see how a bunch of rowdy eskimo's did not do this already)
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dave
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Posted: 20 Dec 2008 at 7:20pm |
This is great stuff!!! And I thought I would be bored tonight!!!!
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Nomad
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RemAcct2
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Posted: 20 Dec 2008 at 7:43pm |
Paul - not to add fuel to the fire, however, since I posted the trip, I want to comment on one thing.
First - I want to mention that I deleted the trip after these concerns were brought up. That said, I always make sure folks going on trips I post have appropriate gear, and in the case of this trip, I certainly would have an appropriate conversation with anyone who I felt wasn't up to the task at hand.
Frankly, I'd like to see more trips posted, in all classes. I don't understand why it isn't all right to post class V trips. PDX does it, why not us. The community should be open, folks should feel comfortable in sharing their plans. I know there is worry about inexperienced paddlers signing up for a class V trip, but ultimately, PP is a conduit to communicate with all of our paddling colleagues. It is far easier and certainly more inclusive for me to post a trip, rather than call everyone I know. If someone signs up who you are unfamiliar with, or don't think should be on the trip - call them. Easy as that. I do think PP sign-up should require a phone in the profile to sign up for trips.
This comes down to a point I have made on several occasions that Seattle (and Bellingham) boaters are more cliqueish (is that a word?) than PDX boaters, and I have often wondered why. Regardless of the reason, I think PP is a way to change that behavior, which I believe to be a detriment to the community.
Bottom line - I like to post trips. It's much easier than calling fifty people.
Don't you agree?
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jP
Rio Banditos
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Posted: 20 Dec 2008 at 8:23pm |
I do, although I have plenty of phone numbers to call as well. When I want to paddle class V (and I do. so what? dosen't make me special. Thousands of people do as well. ) I tend to want to paddle with people whose boating habits I'm familiar with. And I respect it when others act on those sensibilities. I wouldn't have wanted to be out there today with just anyone.
Leif, you were eager to go, and I knew I would feel comfortable out there in those conditions with you. Otherwise I would have declined. I didn't get to paddle with you as often as I may have wanted to this year, so this was a great trip!
Also, with regards to the trip planner, if you openly post the meeting time and place to the World F*ckin Wide Web, be perpared for some unknown variables. There are ways to screen people.
Honestly the way I see people willy nilly "leading" others down class III and IV runs is way more questionable from a safety standpoint than what we did today. No one needed babysitting out there.
Funny how people's persceptions about what is and what is not safe differs, which brings me back to my central point.
Damn it, 'yall need to read "The Squirt Book".
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jP
Rio Banditos
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Posted: 20 Dec 2008 at 8:33pm |
James--the answer to your question is "Yes" for some, and "No" for others.
D4--you may be older and wiser, but I look better in panty hose
Tobin--No one ever mentioned dick size--that's solely your thought process at work. If someone makes untrue careless statements and insults, I have a right and obligation to defend my friends and myself, by stating FACTS to repudiate baseless claims, OK?
Now stop ruining the winter wonderland. Read the trip report, or shut up. Or start your own thread about the hazards of Hypothermia. Just don't drag people's names in the mud while you're doin it. It's not constructive. That's my main beef.
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jP
Rio Banditos
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Posted: 20 Dec 2008 at 8:38pm |
Well sorry, I guess you can't read the report. I typed it out, but somehow it dissappeared into the ether. I guess the river fairies are up to their old tricks again. I'll retype it and try to post it tomorrow.
It was really a special and unique trip.
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rockarolla
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Trying to not fear the REAPER
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Posted: 21 Dec 2008 at 1:06am |
Ice is nice. The steeper the better!
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Dave Moroles. 253 241 8550.
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Jeff
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Posted: 21 Dec 2008 at 10:20am |
WOW! I wish I was able to make the trip yesterday, but this Shitstorm is getting ridiculous! I missed out 'cuz I was making sure that my snowmobiles were in running order for some urban snowmobiling! Good times last night in my neighborhood, and I'm headed out again right now!!!!! Can't get to the river now, so I'll enjoy the water (frozen as snow) before it gets there. Either way, I get time out playin'!!!!!
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"What could possibly go wrong?"
www.flickr.com/photos/jeffdwyer/
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funnywater
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Posted: 21 Dec 2008 at 1:44pm |
yes, a most ridiculous shitstorm, if cheaply entertaining. i've been swirling around this discussion for a bit, and after some reflection, allow my own thoughts to bubble to the surface... bear with me here there's a lot i want to comment on. KTW and WETMOUSE: you two may have more in common than either may care to admit. you both come across as egotists. in your own ways, you both had valid points that in my opinion got subverted by your own tones of superiority and condecension. KTW: your safety concerns are not without merit, but i think you have blown things way out of proportion from the start. it sounds as if wetmouse and the others were safe about their trip, and had no problems. who are you to decide who is qualified for various conditions? who is or is not a class v boater? who is "disrespectful to the river" and who is not? who is a good "example for the community" ect.when you talk down to people, how do you expect them to absorb your message (which i believe was well intended, if mis directed)? it's good of you to point out the dangers you did, but while accusing others as "arrogant", that's exactly how you came across. btw: TOO MANY CAPS!!! WETMOUSE: your response was at least as inflamatory. sure ktw was incitefull, but you chose the "fight fire with fire" approach, and it seems as if that tact did not serve you well. two wrongs don't make a right. you have some valid points, but unfortunately they are lost in a dense cloud of words. btw: TOO MANY WORDS!!! you need to learn how to say what you want, then stop talking. (though this is a long post too). sorry guys. just callin 'em how i see 'em! PAUL: i wouldn't claim to be fluent in "wetmouse speak", but i think he's trying to point out the subjectivity of how we all percieve risk and danger with relationship to our own comfort zones, and that we shouldn't impose our own on each other in militant ways. in other words, let people decide how they want to take and manage their own risks. i agree with wetmouse that dropping a 100 footer is more hazardous than the sky in low water, snowy conditions. let me ask you: when you ran the 100 footer, did you get hurt? did you break any gear? they could have on the sky, i suppose, but it may not be as probable. the probabilities of injury or mishap on large waterfalls seems to be far greater. having said that, hypothermia cannot be underestimated!! SEPTIMUS: nicely put, brief counter to KTW's insinuations. LEIF: seems lots of people are coming at this from the standpoint of posting a trip on a public forum, and the potential calamities that could ensue. that said, sounds like you know the people you were with, so i'm not sure what the big deal is. for the most part, only die hard boaters would show up for such a trip anyway, not to try to evaluate anyone's skill with that observation. it does spark debate about the trip planner, and how it could be used, for better or worse. in your defense, its not as if you invited a bunch of newbies along. people are blowing this up with too many "what if's". saddly what's being crowded out of the discussion is how pretty it must have been on the river yesterday! i'd rather read about that! got any photos? JAMES: you just FUNNY! laughter is the best way to bring people together. way to moderate man! btw: thanks for the historical reminder! JEFF: Fibnok forgives your sins this will be my only post here on this topic, so in closing let me say what is most important for me to say: you are all creatures of one tribe. you are all unique and that is what makes you of value to each other. try to treat each other with more respect, and you'll each reap far greater rewards. all kayakers have things to share, to teach, and to learn! KTW and WETMOUSE ought to go paddle together sometime. see you on the river! (when it's warmer!)
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see you in the funny papers
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Kiran
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Posted: 21 Dec 2008 at 1:45pm |
WOW! And I thought I was going to miss the drama from "GCP" (Gold Country Paddlers) mailing lists in CA! :-) This has been fun reading on a dreary snowy day where even skiing is out of the question purportedly high winds and avalanche conditions
Hi y'all: I have run into a few people around rivers but have hardly got any time on the rivers here. And the winter boating here is way too cold. At least in the Sierra's I can dash to Sacramento and warm up!
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Kiran
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Posted: 21 Dec 2008 at 1:54pm |
Just another thought about "postings" from experiences on GCP.
I do hope people dont stop posting trips here. Please! It's always up the discretion of the group whether or not to paddle with someone.
At GCP, there would be lots of postings for Class II - Class V trips and then the Class V postings stopped. Soon, the class IV trip postings, esp. the harder Class IV trip postings during "non ideal" conditions (wet, rainy, snowy, higher water) also stopped.
I was myself guilty on both counts and starting about 2-3 years ago completely stopped posting trips, just posted trip reports :-) The drama took away from the joy of paddling and I knew a small circle of paddlers who I would paddle with.
Being told who to paddle with and who not take on a trip and when not to paddle got old. None of this small group were "extreme paddlers", just conservative everyday Class IV - IV+ paddlers who occasionally dabbled in some easy Class V's but we were always outside someone else's comfort zone.
This made it hard for a newbie to "get in on the action" unless they happened to be at the right place and at the right time to hook up with the right people.
Now I am in those shoes! :-) (But it's waaayyy too cold for me right now....)
Happy paddling and SYOTR
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PowWrangler
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Posted: 21 Dec 2008 at 3:25pm |
This lady should have joined the Sky trip. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=M0kogs4KEso
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