Hall of Fame: WA Creeking Step-Ladder
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WA Creeking Step-Ladder

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Forum Name: Hall of Fame
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URL: http://www.professorpaddle.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=8293
Printed Date: 28 Mar 2024 at 10:54pm


Topic: WA Creeking Step-Ladder
Posted By: JayB
Subject: WA Creeking Step-Ladder
Date Posted: 21 May 2009 at 1:31pm
Hey All:

Back from a long time away, and curious about whether or not there's anything like a vague consensus about  a logical progression of creeks that aspiring creekers can use as stepping stones to calibrate where they're at and build up skills and experience.

I did a bit of creeking back in New England, and felt like I had the local knowledge and the network necessary to keep my skill-to-river-class ratio in a zone that I was comfortable with.
Now that I'm back in WA for good, some pals and I are excited about checking out some of the many incredible creeks in the area, but want to start out on the mellower end of the scale and work our way up.

If this has already been covered before and there's already a thread that spells all of this out, if someone could kindly provide a link to it, I'd be very grateful. Otherwise, please chime in with your thoughts and suggestions. Anything between Vancouver and Portland (and a similar distance away on the East side is in range, but suggestions in drainages that are closer to Seattle would be especially welcome.)

Many thanks.





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-Jay



Replies:
Posted By: James
Date Posted: 21 May 2009 at 1:48pm
Great Idea Jay,

Here is my ladder approach. I know its not perfect, and it could be done differently but this is based on difficulty, access, remoteness, and mixing in some scenic stuff to keep you lovin it!!!

1. http://professorpaddle.com/rivers/riverdetails.asp?riverid=535 - Peshastin Creek
2. http://professorpaddle.com/rivers/riverdetails.asp?riverid=468 - Lower Icicle Creek in the lower range
3. http://professorpaddle.com/rivers/riverdetails.asp?riverid=603 - Fall In The Wall in the lower range
4. http://professorpaddle.com/rivers/riverdetails.asp?riverid=405 - Cooper in the lower range
5. http://professorpaddle.com/rivers/riverdetails.asp?riverid=498 - Little Wenatchee / http://professorpaddle.com/rivers/riverdetails.asp?riverid=395 - China Gorge
6. Canyon http://professorpaddle.com/rivers/riverdetails.asp?riverid=367 - Creek Stilly or http://professorpaddle.com/rivers/riverdetails.asp?riverid=365 - Lewis in the lower range
7. http://professorpaddle.com/rivers/riverdetails.asp?riverid=657 - Top Tye in the lower range
8. http://professorpaddle.com/rivers/riverdetails.asp?riverid=467 - Upper Icicle Creek in the lower range
9. http://professorpaddle.com/rivers/riverdetails.asp?riverid=584 - Skokomish
10. http://professorpaddle.com/rivers/riverdetails.asp?riverid=627 - Robe Canyon in the lower range 4.8 - 5.4



Posted By: James
Date Posted: 21 May 2009 at 1:51pm
I figure once you start running the middle section on icicle and robe at various levels you would no longer need a guide list etc.. At that point your going to know what you like and don't like, what is a good idea and what is not a good idea.

Having a friend lead you down is the best piece of advice I can offer though. It makes all the difference in the world. The added knowledge of where to boof, what angle, speed and stroke side etc..


Posted By: slickhorn
Date Posted: 21 May 2009 at 1:53pm
Did you just suggest Robe Canyon qualifies as a creek run?

my head just 'sploded!


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Posted By: slickhorn
Date Posted: 21 May 2009 at 2:06pm
on the lower end of the scale, with an eye to trying out creeky type runs but not dealing with any IV+ or V, there are some off-the-beaten-path options:

WF Chehalis has 4 creeky drops.  very forgiving.  could be handled by III paddlers
Teanaway offers a couple of III runs that are creeky mini canyons
Coweeman is technical & fast, and tiny III-IV
Rapid River and/or Miller river, III-IV technical continuous
NW fork Washougal III-IV canyon
EF Humptulips  class II, III, or IV creeky canyon sections. WF has a IV+ run
BC Bridge River fairly remote long day of III-IV. 
Yellowjacket Creek IV canyon
Orletta section of the White Salmon

Then you start getting into the IV-V range
Cooper, Little 'chee, Cle Elum, Canyon Creeks, Farmlands, Truss etc

I'd probably put Farmlands, Truss, McCoy and Ohanepecosh between SF Skok and Robe in James' list above

(how is a run that can hit 20,000 cfs be a creek run? seriously, enlighten me please)

then you're into your true V+ runs like Lil white, clear fork, etc.  unless y'all are calling those V these days lol



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Posted By: James
Date Posted: 21 May 2009 at 2:21pm
Originally posted by slickhorn

(how is a run that can hit 20,000 cfs be a creek run? seriously, enlighten me please)

Ok fine, they might not be creeks but your in a creek boat, and now a days the term doin some creekin has loosened to mean your going to get the creek boat out. At least thats what it seems like. Skok and Robe are really similar, yea not creeks per sei, but ledgy with fluffy rapids and tasty boofs... no?

Originally posted by slickhorn

then you're into your true V+ runs like Lil white, clear fork, etc.  unless y'all are calling those V these days lol

I just figured those are off the ladder ... mainly because when your at the level to hit the upper stuff your no longer following a guideline ... its personal taste/desire at that point.


Posted By: slickhorn
Date Posted: 21 May 2009 at 2:25pm
Don't think I'll ever run Robe, so I can't speak to the similarity with Skok, but the Skok to me has creeky drops, both ledges and boulder gardens.  Seems like you have to have a pretty juicy flow in the Skok to get to the kind of push that seems to be a native feature of Robe at most run flows, at least from what I can tell from scouting and the anecdotes I hear. 

The creek boat explanation makes a weird kind of counter-intuitive sense.  I know people take creekers on the Grand Canyon to have a more comfortable boat ... but if we call that creeking, isn't the distinction kinda lost? 

Agree with the solid V and harder stuff being off the ladder. 

Great topic! 


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Posted By: tradguy2
Date Posted: 21 May 2009 at 2:28pm
I like the list James came up with.  I've only ran the 1st three but they are right on. 
Peshastin is quite a bit easier (or at least less intimidating) than the next two but it is a good intro to creeking.  The run starts out with continuous class III (especially at higher flows) and climaxes with a class IV-/IV before easing off.  If you feel comfortable running Peshastin in a playboat you will probably like Lower Icicle in the low end of the range.
To me, FITW is the prototypical creek run ; steep, small and intimidating.  Thankfully the run is much easier than it looks at the low end of the range.  I followed Mike Harms down my first time without scouting and am glad I did.  I won't go so far as to recommend running it blind but  I will say that if you look at it too long it will psyche you out.  While the drops do look intimidating they are relatively benign with the exception of Larry's Ledge and the left side of Fishermans.  Elbow pads are a good idea.    


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... preparing for a river beating!     


Posted By: James
Date Posted: 21 May 2009 at 2:33pm
I don't dis-agree with ya, I'm just saying what I hear and it could be discussed further based of the features on the run. IE robe might not be a creek, but it does have lots of nice ledges, boofs and tight lines. As far as that goes, then one could argue that Icicle is indeed no creek either but more of a river.




What would you say to that photo?
Creekin, River Running, or Big Water ?



Great Topic For Sure!!!!





Posted By: JoesKayak
Date Posted: 21 May 2009 at 2:53pm
Great thread. In general I like your suggestions, James. And Brian has some really good input too. I will especially concur with Brian on the WF Chehalis river... This is probably the best into to creeking run I've been on. It is pool-drop and has all the features you want to learn on for creeking: ledges & boulder gardens in a small, easy to scout or portage creek. The only downside is it needs a good deal of rain to bring up and I think the road may have issues from the last big flood down there... the one that closed I-5, remember?

Also: another that belongs on the lower 1/2 of the list IMO is EF Lewis falls run. Technically a "river" but it's on the upper stretches where its a smaller streams than many of the "creeks" on the list. Icicle creek should really be called Icicle River and on some maps it is. Anyway, EFL has some classic ledgy rapids and a couple of the cleanest waterfalls around... Plus it's pool-drop.


Now, I have one question that I've been wondering about lately: I hear people on this board saying they are going to run "upper Icicle"... which would mean http://professorpaddle.com/rivers/riverdetails.asp?riverid=466 - this run . However, it seems sometimes they mean they upper half of the http://professorpaddle.com/rivers/riverdetails.asp?riverid=467 - middle run . Is that the case? It's a bit confusing.


Posted By: BRoss
Date Posted: 21 May 2009 at 2:54pm
cool topic. I would put EF Lewis and Lower Wind through shipherd's falls at the easier end of the spectrum. Both are good training for bigger vertical drops.

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"That boated a lot better than it looked." "It always does until it doesn't."


Posted By: BRoss
Date Posted: 21 May 2009 at 2:57pm
ahem, meant the lower wind at summer flows!

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"That boated a lot better than it looked." "It always does until it doesn't."


Posted By: James
Date Posted: 21 May 2009 at 2:58pm
Here ya go Joe.

Icicle Creek
../rivers/riverdetails.asp?riverid=466 - 1 - Rock Island Campground to Ida Creek (Upper Upper)
II-III+(V)
Icicle Creek
../rivers/riverdetails.asp?riverid=467 - 2 - Ida Creek to Eight Mile Creek (Upper)    ../rivers/rivermedia.asp?riverid=467">     (4)
IV-V(V+)
Icicle Creek
../rivers/riverdetails.asp?riverid=1034 - 3 - Ricochet Section (Middle)    ../map/rivermap.asp?riverid=1034">    ../rivers/rivermedia.asp?riverid=1034">     (7)
V-V+
Icicle Creek
../rivers/riverdetails.asp?riverid=468 - 4 - Snow Creek trailhead to Leavenworth Hatchery (Lower)    ../map/rivermap.asp?riverid=468">    ../rivers/rivermedia.asp?riverid=468">     (4)
IV+


I would say most folks that run the Upper run the Middle too, maybe portaging around various rapids. However they are most certainly two distinct types of whitewater. The middle has much more pronounced gradient and ledges where the upper is more continous rapidy fun!


Posted By: JoesKayak
Date Posted: 21 May 2009 at 3:01pm
James I just realized there's more "rivers" than "creeks" in your list.


1. Peshastin Creek
2. Lower Icicle Creek in the lower range
3. Fall In The Wall- SF Snoqualmie River
4. Cooper River in the lower range
5. Little Wenatchee River / China Gorge- Cle Elum River
6. Canyon Creek Stilly or Lewis in the lower range
7. Top Tye River in the lower range
8. Upper Icicle Creek in the lower range
9. SF Skokomish River
10. Robe Canyon- SF Stillaguamish River in the lower range 4.8 - 5.4


Could it be that rivers are better creeks than creeks?



Posted By: slickhorn
Date Posted: 21 May 2009 at 3:02pm
Just to throw an arbitrary number out: in my mind, 1000cfs is one spot where creek vs river maybe meets. 

What is the Tsangpo?  100 fpm and full of ledges, 100' waterfall etc .... definitely run in creekboats.  Doesn't seem like a creek to me ... Stikine also run in creekboats, same deal.

Icicle, to me, is a river.  I agree with Joe there. It's steep, and Ricochet is run at low flows and is uber technical, so it feels "creeky" I suppose.

Maybe a more useful distinction is "Creek" vs "River" which is a function I would think of gradient and volume.  Then a separate distinction for "Creeking" vs "river-running" which is a function of the nature of the moves.  Vertical bedrock, I think, most would agree is creeking.  But what about running Boulder Drop at 1000?  It's not big water.  Ledges and boofs all over.  Run in creekers and playboats.  Where does that fall?

I think this is like arguing river ratings ... it's a loose descriptor, and if you wanna know more, go see it for yourself. 

I'd also throw out Copper Creek as a great intro creeking run.  2 big drops, both easily portaged, otherwise a III+ run with 1 ledge. 


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Posted By: JoesKayak
Date Posted: 21 May 2009 at 3:06pm
OK that helps. I thought maybe people were referring to the upper half of the (old) middle section, like from Ida Creek to Bridge camp.

I haven't run the whole upper section before... just from Ida creek down to just above roadside attraction. So I guess that was the upper's upper half.


I like Bennett's description of Ricochet and the bonus rapids in his book, he says "what you're still reading this? Well, yeah there is some more stuff downstream... you suuure you want to know about that..."


Posted By: James
Date Posted: 21 May 2009 at 3:22pm
Just updated the upper icicle description 


Posted By: JoesKayak
Date Posted: 21 May 2009 at 3:31pm
Nice... I just realized the rapid in my avatar is called "RV". I didn't know that rapid had a name.


Posted By: huckin harms
Date Posted: 21 May 2009 at 4:00pm
Top Tye is not a river, nor Cooper, or Lil Chee.  If you want to argue it... then in name only, eh.


Posted By: jP
Date Posted: 21 May 2009 at 5:13pm
Wow. An actual, engaging topic about KAYAKING. I am so relieved. So many valid points- and I can disagre and agree with different opinions without having to crawl on all fours in the mud. Awesome.
 
My 2 cents:
First- I agree with the bulk of Slickhorns points. Creeking has loosened to generally mean anything run in a creekboat, and listening to me rant about the Diablo, 'yall know how I feel about creek boats on FLAT rivers. The distinction has to do with three things, IMO.
 
Gradient, Volume (cfs that boaters paddle the run), and, just as importantly, CAPACITY (cfs discharged at various rates due to peak events and seasons.)
 The Sky is a river, no matter if you paddle a creekboat or a raft. I consider it not 'flatwater' (because it does have lots of whitewater) but I call it "Flatriver" paddling because the gradient is below 70fpm or so.
 
But back to creeking and your question:
 
There are two basic categories of Creeks (or rivers).
Sustained gradient and Pool Drop. These distinctions are important for you to consider when factoring what's appropriate for you. Knowing these two character distinctions will help you interpret the only concrete info you can generally glean about runs you have not done. Namely, Gradient (expressed in feet per mile) and volume (cfs or feet).
 
This is all probably painfully obvious, but, a 100fpm creek that has sustained gradient is vastly different from a 100fpm pool drop creek. Sustained gradient creeks really take you for a ride, if you aren't careful and comfortable with the "Gun and Run" or "Hey Diddle Diddle" approach. While pool drop runs are generally more digestible in chunks, as they facilliate eddying out and resting, boat scouting from micro eddies, ect.
 
Ingall's/Peshastin, the Rapid, Lower Ici, these are all sustained gradient creeks. IMO when you run these at very low flows you aren't really developing the skills you want for running more difficult runs of this style. What I mean is, You want these kinds of runs to be a little juicier. Why? because they generally smooth out if you add water. They become easier because you just need to stay aligned with the current. Stopping in eddies is often a waste of energy, and a good way to get tripped up. Plus these kinds of runs are hell on a boat ($1000!) if you bump scape and grind your way over their often sharp and manky riverbeds at low flows.
 
FITWah, The Cooper, Green Truss... These exemplify Pool Drop runs. Lower water usually makes them more manageable, easier to eddy out, ect. They channelize better, making them more conducive for ELF paddling. You have pools to land in below pronounced drops.
 
It's cool to make lists an all, (I do it when I'm on the couch jonesin to run everything in the Book), but I'd say it's more important to hang out on runs you know that push your skills. Get familiar with them and really work your fitness/technique. Live in Seattle? You can easily hike-scout FITWah. Not your cup of Tea yet? Then EVERY TIME you go over to the Wenatchee you should be stopping to look at it until the day comes that you run it. It's so close to Seattle that you can hit it up after work. Great boof practice. Tom's right though- ELBOW PADS are a must.
 
I think to approach it like "Ok I just ran FITWah, now I'm going to run somethin harder" is hastey and eroneous. Until you STOP ENTERING Boulder Drop ON THE FAR RIGHT like every Tom, Dick and Harriet ALWAYS DOES, you can't say B.D. is old hat. Go run laps on B.D. There are class V moves at 3000 if you're looking for them. There's also about 100 class IV lines that I almost never see anyone run.
 
Greta topic, BTW
 


Posted By: jP
Date Posted: 21 May 2009 at 5:24pm
To more directly answer you with lists:
 
 
Run Peshastin for limited IV, Add Ingall's to the beginning of your Peshastin run for   more class IV (should be running this wekend)
Pilchuck Creek (Hard to catch at good flows)
E.Frk Lewis (late winter/early spring)
FITWah (Right around the corner!)
CC Stilly (should be running lately)
Cooper (Right around the corner!)
Top Tye
 
That's just a few-mostly class III - IV, with some class V morsels thrown in, depending on waterlevel.
 
Like James said, the best is to follow someone (with the caveat: make sure they can lead you properly, and have the run confidently dialed in)


Posted By: Larry
Date Posted: 21 May 2009 at 6:31pm
I ran the Top Tye, and Truss, before any of the others on James list. Then I think I kinda fell off the ladder (maybe started too high?). Then again, I did start boating with "OH sure, You can do that" Rob. And now Robs off the ladder in the other direction.
 
Anyway, I'm not going to rank them, but don't forget about Fun, not to difficult, creeks like the Foss, Silver Creek, the Cascade. Sure, Silver is not easy to get to now, and the Cascade isn't the same since they removed the bridge. But still great runs.
 
I'm not so concerned any more about what might be the next river in the progression of things. I know the kinds of run I like and those I don't. I have no ambition of running Robe, or the Little White. But would love to get on McKoy, or the Cispus, or some others I haven't done yet.
 
I found the best thing is to paddle with as many different groups, or individuals, as possible. Everyone will have different runs they know, and different ones they like, and will be able to guide you to the best ones for you based on skill level and style preferrence. Just get out as much as possible on as many different runs as possible.
 
Sorry for the JP style post


Posted By: dave
Date Posted: 21 May 2009 at 6:53pm
OMG! These guys are long winded...

I am a beginer creeker and its easy.

Dont get all hung up on the Levenworth side... its great, but everyone is hung up on driving 3 hours each way every weekend... Stupid...

FITW is close and a great beginer run at med to low flows.

Cooper is close also and the next step past FITW.

Then hit the Icicle if you have the gas money and massive amounts of time it takes to go over there.

There is some stuff around Granit Falls also that is close and mixed difficulty.



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Nomad


Posted By: dave
Date Posted: 21 May 2009 at 6:58pm
Hey, but what do I know, I am just a beginner with a big mortgage to pay and no gas money...

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Nomad


Posted By: PowWrangler
Date Posted: 21 May 2009 at 8:29pm
I'd add that Robe at med to low flows isn't as difficult as people make it out to be.....Ohane and McCoy both have bigger drops than Robe.

Also, I wouldn't base too much on whether the pioneers named it a creek or a river.




Posted By: Confucius
Date Posted: 21 May 2009 at 10:11pm
Men of few words sometimes say many things.

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Through words and deeds the superior man moves heaven and earth. Must one not, then, be cautious? "Confucius,500 BC"


Posted By: JayB
Date Posted: 21 May 2009 at 10:23pm
Hey All:

Thanks so much for all of the great info - especially James/Slickhorn - just the sort of thing that I felt like I had a pretty good handle on back East. So helpful to have something similar to use as a reference out here! Please continue to chime in with other options that fall somewhere on the continuum.

If you're leading a trip on anything that falls somewhere in the range of the first five rivers this spring/summer - maybe post if you're cool with leading people down or if you'd rather keep things fluid on the way down.

So stoked to be back in the PNW! Rivers/creeks - it's all good!

Dave - where's Granite Falls and what's the stuff that's out there?


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-Jay


Posted By: Texas Dave
Date Posted: 22 May 2009 at 5:53am
The most popular stuff in Granite Falls is Canyon Creek Stilly and Robe Canyon on the Stilly.  I have no ambition to run Robe but if you want to run CC Stilly some time, I can lead that.  It's number 6 on James's list but personally, I think at low - medium flow, it's much easier than the Little Wenatchee.  I can't speak to most of the other because I haven't run them yet but they are on my list for this year.
 


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Dave


Posted By: dave
Date Posted: 22 May 2009 at 7:08am
James is on my list... oh and the CC Stilly is on it too.

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Nomad


Posted By: JoesKayak
Date Posted: 22 May 2009 at 7:53am
Originally posted by huckin harms

Top Tye is not a river, nor Cooper, or Lil Chee.  If you want to argue it... then in name only, eh.


I agree... The point I was making is it's hard to judge a run as big/small by it's name as some 'creeks' are bigger than some 'rivers'. It also depends on how high up in a drainage you go. Tye River is pretty good sized stream at it's confluence with the Beckler where it becomes the SF Sky... but up in the upper reaches of the Top Tye, especially above Deception, it's pretty small.


Posted By: sherstcp
Date Posted: 22 May 2009 at 8:57am

great thread for someone like me who just moved here...

I've spoken to a few of you who have lived out east regarding what "creeks" closely resemble the difficulty of the UY in PA, but of course have forgotten.  Perhaps a reply here would make me remember :P  I absolutely LOVE the UY (wish it had some waterfalls) and want to paddle something of similar difficulty here...and it would also allow me to guage where I can start out here.
 
Thanks!
 
calvin


Posted By: arnobarno
Date Posted: 22 May 2009 at 9:09am
This is a great discussion - especially for someone interested in ideas on the easier end of the scale - like me.  I have no real interest in running IV+/V rapids - class IV is as much risk as I am willing to accept especially given my feeble skills.  The information on pool/drop and continuous is also very helpful.

It would be interesting to know if any of these creeks (especially some that I'd disqualify based on what I wrote above) would stay in the class IV category if there was a rapid or two that were the crux and the crux could be *EASILY* portaged.  So, for example, in the river world, most people start running the Sky and carry BD before running it.  In fact, many do that for their entire kayaking careers but they can be out on the river enjoying it with friends with more skills and/or more willingness to accept risk.


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arn9schaeffer@gmail.com (remove 9 for my real email address)


Posted By: James
Date Posted: 22 May 2009 at 9:42am
Great Point Arn... I think that alot of people miss that about certain runs.

Portagability makes great sense when your learning and increasing skills. Tumwater is a great example of that.  You can put in on that run as a Class III boater at certain water levels and have a blast, every major rapid is easily portaged. While not a creek at all, you can slowly chew off what you want to digest one bite at a time, and the in-between stuff is great learning material. The same is not true of the Cooper. There are ledges there that your just going to have to run, which is why I would also list it a bit higher on the learning curve.



Posted By: JoesKayak
Date Posted: 22 May 2009 at 9:44am
Originally posted by arnobarno

This is a great discussion - especially for someone interested in ideas on the easier end of the scale - like me.  I have no real interest in running IV+/V rapids - class IV is as much risk as I am willing to accept especially given my feeble skills.  The information on pool/drop and continuous is also very helpful.

It would be interesting to know if any of these creeks (especially some that I'd disqualify based on what I wrote above) would stay in the class IV category if there was a rapid or two that were the crux and the crux could be *EASILY* portaged.  So, for example, in the river world, most people start running the Sky and carry BD before running it.  In fact, many do that for their entire kayaking careers but they can be out on the river enjoying it with friends with more skills and/or more willingness to accept risk.


Class 4 creeking is one of my favorite types of boating. Here's my input on runs I know at least fairly well:

Peshastin Creek: Very busy, continuous but mostly class 3. A couple spots that are class 4. Fresh squeezed is a pretty stout class 4 IMO (I think some under-rate it) but it's easy enough to scout ahead of time.

Lower Icicle: (at low to med levels, I've done it at 3000-5000 on Wenatchee, and it's good at all those levels) Another continuous run, but most the drops aren't too difficult. Class 4 and under at these flows.... There is one hole in one of the first rapids where the creek splits around an island that can be an ass-kicker, but you can portage it. At higher levels you can run the other side of the island and miss it altogether.

Canyon Creek Stilly: This run is mostly class 3+/4 at lower levels. And you can portage pretty much anything except for one rapid (double drop) which is probably the funnest drop anyway and has a pool below it. There are 3 drops that rate 4+ IMO even at lower flows though... The first rapid, which you could portage, the double drop-already described, and the rapid below that, which you can portage partially or entirely...  This is a good example of a pool-drop high gradient run. drops are fairly close together, but have pools in between (at med and low flows). I recommend trying it out at 250-325 the first time. The gage isn't working right now, but on the SF Stilly gage that ususally correlates to around 4.8 to 5.2 feet.

EF Lewis Falls Run: Excellent pool-drop creeky run with class 3-4 rapids and two of the easiest waterfalls you'll find. Good levels to try out are around 700-1200 cfs.

Rapid River/Miller River: These are both continuous boulder garden types of creeks. Both are class 4 at lower levels (for the Rapid I just refer to laps on the lower mile, there's some harder stuff upstream). Lower levels on the Miller are usually around 4000-5000 on the Sky. Lower levels on the Rapid are around 6500-8000 on the sky during snowmelt, 8000-10,000 for rain event.

edit: another cool thing about the Rapid is the lower mile section is easy to do laps on with a bicycle shuttle and you can pretty much scout everything on the way up.

Out of all of these, for a pool-drop creeking run, I would say the EFL is the best for someone looking for not harder than 4 run.



Posted By: James
Date Posted: 22 May 2009 at 9:45am
One other run that should be on the learning curve list is N. Fork Nooksack (horseshoe bend)

Wonderful boofs in there and it is nice and short with easy access. Plus there is a great lower section to cool down on. That and ole man Dufay is the local so your bound to have some fun!!!


Posted By: jP
Date Posted: 22 May 2009 at 10:51am
Forgot the NF Nookie-- it's a great class IV. Short, but good quality, and if you push the levels up, or hit some auxilery lines along the run, you can start getting some simulated class V moves linked up in a few places.
 
Sorry Dave, If I'm too stupid for you, or anyone else who doesn't like my long posts. I can't help it I'm passionate about paddling. I figure as long as I'm not ripping on someone, as long as I'm sharing my passion for paddling, my posts can be as long as I want them to be. It's not my fault so many people have short attention spans. Such people should watch more TV instead.
 
It's under 3hrs to the Wenatchee from Seattle, if you go over Blewett Pass Via I-90. Soon you can hit FITWah on a Friday night on your way over. Not a bad deal.
 
People may be running Peshastin Creek this weekend, so JAY B, you should hit that up!!


Posted By: tradguy2
Date Posted: 22 May 2009 at 10:57am

Jay B, you should join the Peshaston Creek trip at the PP Ball if you are in the area. 



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... preparing for a river beating!     


Posted By: James
Date Posted: 22 May 2009 at 10:57am
Quite right... and don't forget to dingle the dangler... a smiling combo for sure aeh!


Posted By: jP
Date Posted: 22 May 2009 at 11:06am
James is refering to a little move we found on the NF Nooksack last year, but alas, the dastardly dangler is gone now. The move involved a text book pillow / s-turn sort of boof, beneath a dangling "Sword of Damocles" piece of wood. By our last lap that weekend the wood we had come to be so affectionately arfaid of was gone.


Posted By: arnobarno
Date Posted: 22 May 2009 at 11:08am
Great stuff and thanks, Joe, for your list.  I ran EFL earlier this year and thought it was super-fun - even though I had probably the worst line ever in Horseshoe Falls - at least I was in the middle slot! 

I'll probably be joining you Tom on Peshastin/Ingalls next weekend - looking forward to it!


-------------
arn9schaeffer@gmail.com (remove 9 for my real email address)


Posted By: JoesKayak
Date Posted: 22 May 2009 at 11:12am
Cool. I've been looking forward to getting back to Peshastin. The last time I ran it was with Dave Becker back when he was still kayaking and didn't even have a catboat yet.. so it's been quite a while.


Posted By: JayB
Date Posted: 25 May 2009 at 2:39pm
Originally posted by tradguy2

Jay B, you should join the Peshaston Creek trip at the PP Ball if you are in the area. 



Thanks for the invite - trying to free up the time, and should be able to get over there for at least Saturday afternoon onwards.

If it works out, I'm definitely in for the Peshastin Trip.





-------------
-Jay


Posted By: JayB
Date Posted: 25 May 2009 at 4:04pm
Some of my EC footy for calibration purposes. Thought that they illustrate the difference between high-gradient pool-drop stuff vs continous low-gradient stuff (per JP - thanks for the valuable input, BTW), and might be useful for anyone who may happen to randomly peruse this thread at some point:

(Mostly) High-Gradient Pool Drop:

(Maine Creeks)

http://vimeo.com/4834983


Low-Gradient Continuous:

(Fall-Creek, MA)

Helmet:

http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-5244840309835524923

Streamside:

http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=5934725236496576273

Guessing most of the top-end water in these vids would rate IV-IV+ in the NW? The hardest stuff in the vids was at or near the top end of the stuff that I'd be likely to hit here after I get established and figure out what's in the right range.



-------------
-Jay


Posted By: BRoss
Date Posted: 25 May 2009 at 9:44pm
Nice vids, definitely some fun looking stuff in there. Was that NTM in the Fall Creek video?

-------------
"That boated a lot better than it looked." "It always does until it doesn't."


Posted By: JoesKayak
Date Posted: 08 Jun 2009 at 2:36pm
Man, I had forgotten just how fun Peshastin is. Got back there last weekend. Nice medium flow (about 2.5 to 2.6 on the gage). Class 3+ rapids just go on and on. Definitely recommend jumping on this crik before the water runs out!


Posted By: LisaF
Date Posted: 09 Jun 2009 at 5:27pm
Lower Tye (AKA Blue Tarp run) is nice class III+/IV with a definite creek feeling. Don't forget to portage the huge tree in Mindbender (you can see it from the road)

Lower Foss + Lower Tye (where it comes into the Foss) is another of the same approximate difficulty, but the lower Foss is much more continuous than the first one I listed.

I like to do both these runs to warm up after a season of not creeking!


Posted By: Courtney
Date Posted: 09 Jun 2009 at 7:36pm
All of those MA video's from JayB are exactly the type of creeking Jimmy and I used to do back in the southeast.  Where are the creeks like that out here?  The low volume, steep and technical stuff?  Low volume being the main words here.


Posted By: Monk
Date Posted: 09 Jun 2009 at 8:08pm
Check out Clearwater Creek in the MF Nooksack Drainage.  She always excites.  Even sandstone bedrock for you mid atlantic types.

http://www.bellinghamwhitewater.org/2007/10/27/c-water/
http://www.americanwhitewater.org/content/River/detail/id/3583/


Posted By: jondufay
Date Posted: 09 Jun 2009 at 8:37pm

check out NF nooksack horseshoe bend.  great flows late into the summer and tons of great moves.  boating the bend regularly will make you a better boater.  best fish tacos in WA right at the take out at grahams. 



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ahh, f--- it dude, lets go boating...


Posted By: dave
Date Posted: 09 Jun 2009 at 10:51pm
WOW, Hugo finally speaks using his real Alias!

-------------
Nomad


Posted By: Monk
Date Posted: 09 Jun 2009 at 11:12pm
Second the tacos.


Posted By: jondufay
Date Posted: 09 Jun 2009 at 11:34pm
Originally posted by dave

WOW, Hugo finally speaks using his real Alias!
 
I am guessing that you are refering to me Dave.  What is a real alias?  I see those terms as being contradictory in nature.  Some might call it oxymoronish.  But I realize that you are only trying (very hard) to be clever.  Keep trying buddy, but realize that not only are you wrong, I am in accord with those that think that you are a clown, and not the good kind of clown either.  I know, I know, you can "throw down" in a creekboat on the Middle Middle.  Good for you bro.  Keep blabbing incoherent , irrational and dijuncted (is that enough words to describe you) spray...it must be good for your soul. 
 
Jon


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ahh, f--- it dude, lets go boating...


Posted By: dave
Date Posted: 10 Jun 2009 at 8:32am
Ahh, spoken in true Hugo fashion...

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Nomad


Posted By: Monk
Date Posted: 10 Jun 2009 at 9:26am
Cooper is definitely easier than FITW.

But FITW is great.  Just finished a nice dawn patrol, perfect level for a first time run.


Posted By: slickhorn
Date Posted: 10 Jun 2009 at 9:58am
Originally posted by Monk

Cooper is definitely easier than FITW.


Really? Man, I've always thought the opposite was true.  Would you be willing to share why you think so?  I guess I run them lowish so maybe that's a factor.

For me, FITW doesn't have anything as technically challenging as Shark's Tooth.   FITW seems like a lot of 1 move drops, and you can bail at any time.  Just my opinion though.

--b



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Posted By: jondufay
Date Posted: 10 Jun 2009 at 10:19am

Yo OC!  good to have you back into the creekboating world!  What are you up to this weekend?

 
Dave...fuck off.


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ahh, f--- it dude, lets go boating...


Posted By: huckin harms
Date Posted: 10 Jun 2009 at 10:20am

FITW is just about as plop and drop as it gets.  Class III paddlers can get away with it at lowish flows.  Cooper is a step up, as egress is much more difficult and drops like Norms, Cheesegrater, Sharks, and Voodoo have some beatdown potential.  Not to say that FITW doesn't have that (fishermans), but seems to me Cooper is a step up.  Not to be confrontational Monk... just my 2cents



Posted By: JayB
Date Posted: 10 Jun 2009 at 11:14am
Originally posted by jondufay

check out NF nooksack horseshoe bend.  great flows late into the summer and tons of great moves.  boating the bend regularly will make you a better boater.  best fish tacos in WA right at the take out at grahams. 



Thanks - will add this one to the list.

Sorry to be such a shameless beta-ho, but if you have any general details like how late into the summer it runs, high-low flow ranges, significant hazards that aren't obvious from the bank - that'd be cool.

If not - thanks anyway for adding this one to the list.



-------------
-Jay


Posted By: James
Date Posted: 10 Jun 2009 at 11:21am
I think between Cooper and FITW it is a close call that levels greatly determine. Both creeks can be easy based on the water level and both can be ass kickers at the right water level.

What can't be argued is the cooper is longer and farther from the road. FITW has more gradient stacked back to back.

Lets go do some same day comparisions!!!


Posted By: JayB
Date Posted: 10 Jun 2009 at 11:39am
Originally posted by Courtney

All of those MA video's from JayB are exactly the type of creeking Jimmy and I used to do back in the southeast.  Where are the creeks like that out here?  The low volume, steep and technical stuff?  Low volume being the main words here.


I'm afflicted with the same disease - loved the low volume technical stuff back there for a lot of reasons.

May be heading back to the Beaver over labor day weekend to get another dose of warm-water, low-volume creeking. Great stuff.

Viva El Beaver!:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oSKfz6s2LkU

Featuring - the Beaverator...

http://www.vimeo.com/4897157


-------------
-Jay


Posted By: slickhorn
Date Posted: 10 Jun 2009 at 12:20pm
 
Originally posted by Courtney

All of those MA video's from JayB are exactly the type of creeking Jimmy and I used to do back in the southeast.  Where are the creeks like that out here?  The low volume, steep and technical stuff?  Low volume being the main words here.


I think Cispus Super Slides might qualify.  Also McCoy creek is low volume steep and technical.  I hear rumors of something in the Klickitat headwaters on the Yakima drainage that is chock full of low volume slide type drops. 

-b


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Posted By: Monk
Date Posted: 10 Jun 2009 at 12:57pm
Based on my first run on FITW this morning at low mediumish flows, and a run a little while back at healthy flows on Cooper, I'd completely disagree.  A beat down on Norm's has very low real consequence, just way more spread out.  When you start stacking things like the foursome, and throw in a newby swimming below number two or three, and you are talking potential for bodily injury.


Posted By: jondufay
Date Posted: 10 Jun 2009 at 1:01pm
Originally posted by JayB



Sorry to be such a shameless beta-ho, but if you have any general details like how late into the summer it runs, high-low flow ranges, significant hazards that aren't obvious from the bank - that'd be cool.

If not - thanks anyway for adding this one to the list.

 
No prob.  First off, there is a great hiking trail all the way along it that is riverside, so hike it if you want first.  You can see every rapid on it, and everything is an easy protage if need be.  If it looks like something that you do not want to get into, the take out (doug fir campground bridge) is the put in for the canyon section which is class III, but great fun.  Here are the flow break downs...
in but high at 2000-1500
****perfect 1500-1100***
med low 1000-750
750-500 low
500-300, in but very low, water lines through everything though.
 
Last summer we boated it in the perfect-med low flows well into August. 
 
The canyon below does not really have a high end flow, but below 1000 it gets to be a bit manky, boatable down to 750ish though.
 
If you are heading up here ever and want to hit it up, there is a great community (Leif would say clique) up here that would be more than happy to put on with you.  You can hit me up here, or check out http://www.bellinghamwhitewater.org - www.bellinghamwhitewater.org
 
Jon


-------------
ahh, f--- it dude, lets go boating...


Posted By: huckin harms
Date Posted: 10 Jun 2009 at 1:29pm
Originally posted by Monk

Based on my first run on FITW this morning at low mediumish flows, and a run a little while back at healthy flows on Cooper, I'd completely disagree.  A beat down on Norm's has very low real consequence, just way more spread out.  When you start stacking things like the foursome, and throw in a newby swimming below number two or three, and you are talking potential for bodily injury.
 
At least the swimmer can walk off without risk to life, climbing out of the Cooper would be a daunting task.  Granted the Coop is more pool drop, FITW pretty stacked, but again its just point it and plop.  Not real technical as creeks go.  But whatever....


Posted By: Monk
Date Posted: 10 Jun 2009 at 1:36pm
Exactly, whatever.


Posted By: tradguy2
Date Posted: 10 Jun 2009 at 2:26pm
What do you guys mean whatever?  I want a good argument.  What is a message board if it is not entertainment?

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... preparing for a river beating!     


Posted By: James
Date Posted: 10 Jun 2009 at 2:56pm
Whatever Tom! 


Posted By: Monk
Date Posted: 10 Jun 2009 at 2:59pm
I'd rather be boating than bickering about what is harder vs easier.  They were both fun runs that I would recommend to any solid IV boater looking for a little taste of ledgy action.

Jay B, I second Doof's beta.  If you are the guy I paddled with on the MM a few wednesday's ago, I think that the NF would be fun for you.  Come on up to Bham and join us sometime.

Sorry trad guy.


Posted By: huckin harms
Date Posted: 10 Jun 2009 at 3:04pm

your right... boating is way better than bickering, hands down.  we're totally agreed!



Posted By: tradguy2
Date Posted: 10 Jun 2009 at 3:09pm
Originally posted by huckin harms

your right... boating is way better than bickering, hands down.  we're totally agreed!

I have to agree too. 


-------------
... preparing for a river beating!     


Posted By: James
Date Posted: 10 Jun 2009 at 3:42pm
whatever!


Posted By: James
Date Posted: 10 Jun 2009 at 3:43pm
Ok guyz ...I'll agree too 


Posted By: JoesKayak
Date Posted: 10 Jun 2009 at 3:55pm
I've seen alot of bickering on the river. So is multitasking the best?


Posted By: hugo
Date Posted: 10 Jun 2009 at 4:13pm
Originally posted by tradguy2

Originally posted by huckin harms

your right... boating is way better than bickering, hands down.  we're totally agreed!

I have to agree too. 
 
 
this shit makes my ears bleed!  fuck


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suck it


Posted By: JayB
Date Posted: 10 Jun 2009 at 4:46pm
Originally posted by jondufay

Originally posted by JayB



Sorry to be such a shameless beta-ho, but if you have any general details like how late into the summer it runs, high-low flow ranges, significant hazards that aren't obvious from the bank - that'd be cool.

If not - thanks anyway for adding this one to the list.

 
No prob.  First off, there is a great hiking trail all the way along it that is riverside, so hike it if you want first.  You can see every rapid on it, and everything is an easy protage if need be.  If it looks like something that you do not want to get into, the take out (doug fir campground bridge) is the put in for the canyon section which is class III, but great fun.  Here are the flow break downs...
in but high at 2000-1500
****perfect 1500-1100***
med low 1000-750
750-500 low
500-300, in but very low, water lines through everything though.
 
Last summer we boated it in the perfect-med low flows well into August. 
 
The canyon below does not really have a high end flow, but below 1000 it gets to be a bit manky, boatable down to 750ish though.
 
If you are heading up here ever and want to hit it up, there is a great community (Leif would say clique) up here that would be more than happy to put on with you.  You can hit me up here, or check out http://www.bellinghamwhitewater.org - www.bellinghamwhitewater.org
 
Jon


Hey Jon:

Many thanks for all of the info - I'd love to hit up that run with you guys, so I'll definitely be in touch in the next couple of weeks.

-Jay


-------------
-Jay


Posted By: JayB
Date Posted: 10 Jun 2009 at 4:48pm
Originally posted by Monk

I'd rather be boating than bickering about what is harder vs easier.  They were both fun runs that I would recommend to any solid IV boater looking for a little taste of ledgy action.

Jay B, I second Doof's beta.  If you are the guy I paddled with on the MM a few wednesday's ago, I think that the NF would be fun for you.  Come on up to Bham and join us sometime.

Sorry trad guy.


I think I'm that guy - we were chatting about NZ (cool movies on your site, BTW) - looking forward to heading up there.


-------------
-Jay


Posted By: slickhorn
Date Posted: 12 Jun 2009 at 4:37pm
Originally posted by Monk

I'd rather be boating than bickering about what is harder vs easier.  They were both fun runs that I would recommend to any solid IV boater looking for a little taste of ledgy action.


While I agree with the sentiment, this has been one of the more polite and on-topic threads in a while.  Let's save terms like "bickering" to describe the obnoxious off-topic trolling prevalent in other threads, not a serious discussion that is respectful on all sides.


-------------


Posted By: JayB
Date Posted: 12 Jun 2009 at 7:52pm
Soooo....

After getting on a couple of runs near the lower end of the scale I think I'm getting a reasonable sense of where I'm at on the calibration scale, and I've concluded that the thing to do is get as much mileage as possible on stuff that's at or near FITW in terms of difficulty.

I think that Tom/Tradguy2's description of what to expect on a first trip down the run was right on. Scouting the drops in advance *was* intimidating (so much so that I opted to start off the first run with the Fearsome Onesome, and left the option open to start of the top of the FF on the second run if things went well), but it does paddle easier than it looks.

Turns out that things went well enough on the first run to warrant starting at the top of FF the second time around, but an awful lot of credit for that goes to Fish/Scott - who was pretty much the perfect chaperone for the run. Checked in before each drop, gave pinpoint beta in the pool, and then showed how it was done out in front - couldn't have asked for a better guide down that sucker.

More mileage, more stylage, then we'll see about some selective escalation.






-------------
-Jay


Posted By: NateW
Date Posted: 28 May 2013 at 7:33am
I'm a new to creekboating paddler that has managed to follow this progression list rather closely. I started out this season getting on peshastin/ingalls at a fairly low level ~450cfs and getting a number of laps on it all the way up to ~1000cfs. Ingalls definitely got to be quite exciting at the higher levels.

This weekend I managed to get out on lower icicle (1100cfs / medium?) on Saturday and then ran both Cooper (medium level) and FITW (low / very low) Monday. As per the discussion in this thread I think it's a bit of a coin flip as to how you would rank the difficulty of these runs against each other. I had the most trouble with FITW - I managed to run the same drop backwards twice and make a mess of fisherman's both times.

Lower icicle felt like it was really an extension of running peshastin/ingalls with tough rapid right off the bat - kinda like how ingalls goes. I enjoyed the cooper the most, the drops were really fun and more spaced out so I felt like I could compose myself a bit more than FITW.

So I guess my advice to beginner people that find this thread would be to try any of them that you can get on with a good paddler to lead you down. I didn't have to use my brain much at all - just go on the line I was told to follow which I think was helpful at my ability level.


Posted By: FLUID
Date Posted: 29 May 2013 at 1:42pm

I think to approach it like "Ok I just ran FITWah, now I'm going to run somethin harder" is hastey and eroneous. Until you STOP ENTERING Boulder Drop ON THE FAR RIGHT like every Tom, Dick and Harriet ALWAYS DOES, you can't say B.D. is old hat. Go run laps on B.D. There are class V moves at 3000 if you're looking for them. There's also about 100 class IV lines that I almost never see anyone run.
"JP"

Agreed !! this is the the number one thing I see people doing when trying to step it up. There trying to step up the creek level without stepping up there game.. It's more important to be a solid solid class III-IV paddler than to be a so-so class IV paddler and want to step it up. not that you cant overcome the trials and errors but your experience of each new creek you run will be safer and much more positive and rewarding.

strive to run every river the same like training with intenent, drive, rhythm and flow. there are creeky feeling creeks and river feeling creeks and im not going to get into it but take every river as you come to it and be honest with your self and your skill. I would say Ricochet at good flows feels like big water but I would call it a creek because you must make creek moves where as real rivers your not boofing as much as your using laterals to move you around. Both are done in creek boats perhaps but take different techniuqes.

Its all perspective when you get right down to it... Top Tye isn't a place to be figuring out the ol boof stroke...... 100 laps on the copper working on not flipping, nailing every boof, running multipule lines, and catching every eddy you can....


Posted By: TastyWaves
Date Posted: 29 May 2013 at 3:07pm
While its certainly not a creek by any stretch of the imagination, Tumwater Canyon deserves a place on this thread.
 
Tumwater should definitely be considered in the logical progression for any paddler in this area, and I would definitely want to be comfortable running Tumwater at lower levels (under 2500 cfs) before getting on Robe or Middle Icicle.
 
All the big rapids on Tumwater can be portaged easily if desired, but the skills you'll build paddling that river will get you prepared for just about anything with the exception of big vertical drops.  If you portage the bigger rapids (The Wall, Chaos, POW, and Exit) most people would say well why even bother, but the in between stuff is great III-IV paddling and you can work on lots of skills. If all of that is comfortable and you are styling it, you could think about running The Wall, and there's a rapid that could be run a 1,000 different ways with pretty minimal consequences.
 
Like yourself I took several years (6 or 7) out of the sport and when I came back I had completely lost confidence in my combat roll. Took me about 6 months to get back in the swing of things, and Tumwater Canyon was definitely the turning point for me.
 


-------------
Wise men say forgiveness is divine, but never pay full price for late pizza.


Posted By: JayB
Date Posted: 29 May 2013 at 8:15pm
Originally posted by TastyWaves

While its certainly not a creek by any stretch of the imagination, Tumwater Canyon deserves a place on this thread.
 
Tumwater should definitely be considered in the logical progression for any paddler in this area, and I would definitely want to be comfortable running Tumwater at lower levels (under 2500 cfs) before getting on Robe or Middle Icicle.
 
All the big rapids on Tumwater can be portaged easily if desired, but the skills you'll build paddling that river will get you prepared for just about anything with the exception of big vertical drops.  If you portage the bigger rapids (The Wall, Chaos, POW, and Exit) most people would say well why even bother, but the in between stuff is great III-IV paddling and you can work on lots of skills. If all of that is comfortable and you are styling it, you could think about running The Wall, and there's a rapid that could be run a 1,000 different ways with pretty minimal consequences.
 
Like yourself I took several years (6 or 7) out of the sport and when I came back I had completely lost confidence in my combat roll. Took me about 6 months to get back in the swing of things, and Tumwater Canyon was definitely the turning point for me.
 


Just out of curiosity - where would folks plug in Tumwater (taking out above Exit) at ~1000cfs, 2000cfs, etc?


-------------
-Jay


Posted By: TastyWaves
Date Posted: 29 May 2013 at 8:24pm
I'm not sure I understand the question. You are trying to find holes to Plug? I know of one specific spot in Chaos... but the llama pit ain't recomendable my friend!!

-------------
Wise men say forgiveness is divine, but never pay full price for late pizza.


Posted By: JayB
Date Posted: 29 May 2013 at 9:28pm
Originally posted by TastyWaves

I'm not sure I understand the question. You are trying to find holes to Plug? I know of one specific spot in Chaos... but the llama pit ain't recomendable my friend!!


Poor choice of words on my part. I meant - where would you rank Tumwater in terms of difficulty, running all of the rapids, relative to other runs that people have been using as benchmarks.

I ran everything but POW ~3 years ago at a ~900cfs and based on what I saw then I'd say the rapids are significantly more difficult than the Little Wenatchee, but the hazards are more obvious and the run is way less committing - so in the unlikely event that anyone asked my opinion, I'd say the prudent thing to do would be to hit Tumwater at low flows a bunch of times before putting on the Little Wenatchee so you'll be solid enough to deal with any nasty surprises that you might encounter in the LW...so I'd plug in Tumwater in the number 5 spot after the Cooper on the list below.


1. http://professorpaddle.com/rivers/riverdetails.asp?riverid=535 - Peshastin Creek
2. http://professorpaddle.com/rivers/riverdetails.asp?riverid=468 - Lower Icicle Creek in the lower range
3. http://professorpaddle.com/rivers/riverdetails.asp?riverid=603 - Fall In The Wall in the lower range
4. http://professorpaddle.com/rivers/riverdetails.asp?riverid=405 - Cooper in the lower range
5. http://professorpaddle.com/rivers/riverdetails.asp?riverid=498 - Little Wenatchee / http://professorpaddle.com/rivers/riverdetails.asp?riverid=395 - China Gorge
6. Canyon http://professorpaddle.com/rivers/riverdetails.asp?riverid=367 - Creek Stilly or http://professorpaddle.com/rivers/riverdetails.asp?riverid=365 - Lewis in the lower range
7. http://professorpaddle.com/rivers/riverdetails.asp?riverid=657 - Top Tye in the lower range
8. http://professorpaddle.com/rivers/riverdetails.asp?riverid=467 - Upper Icicle Creek in the lower range
9. http://professorpaddle.com/rivers/riverdetails.asp?riverid=584 - Skokomish
10. http://professorpaddle.com/rivers/riverdetails.asp?riverid=627 - Robe Canyon in the lower range 4.8 - 5.4


-------------
-Jay


Posted By: FLUID
Date Posted: 29 May 2013 at 11:04pm
 

 

Your almost there... but still I think JP is all telling in this theme. your basing a list for your progression based on other peoples advise and learning curve however its a great list of rivers.  Tastey waves is right Tummy is SO great for progress late summer when its low because it's pool drop, warm and you can chew off what you want or portage your way down. if you do take this approach the "Lil Chee" (sorry LW is reserved)  will be long gone and dried up for the year and you'll have to catch it next season.

 Again as JP noted which I'm kind of jumping on board with and his essay style writing..haha is you can't make a list of rivers to progress because it's an edless journey and even those blind corners on those class III+ OP personal first D's when your new can be skill building all on its own. Sure you could make a list like your doing and say " I would like to run these rivers in the next year or two which are within my limits. the problem with your logic is you can't make a list like your doing and say well If I do FITW I'll be ready for the cooper. If I do the Cooper I'll be ready for tummy, when I'm done with tummy ill be ready for the Lil chee. Any one of these water systems has the porential to humble you regardless of order. I think if you run the cooper over and over you'll be ready for the lil chee if you are on your game and nailing every boof, catching every eddy and the most important in my book having NO FLIP RUNS. Which were all subject to But.... Being ready as you say for any nasty surprise is not about doing one certain run it's about seat time and move repetition. my favorite saying from a kayak coach I admire is repetition is the mother of all learning.  try to style acring boofs vs strait on boofs on every run you do over and over, mastering lift and pop off of pillows,  drop into holes on purpose on easy runs and try to deal in a controlled place, surfing pillows and headwalls in uncomfortable places on class II-III playboating is great for reaction time and quick rolling but practicing strokes and form the same way over and over is where its at.  I'm still perfecting the boof and smooth stroke combinations trying to see how on edge I can get my boat without flipping while cracking a boof or working on bow stearing and the illusive C-stroke all new creekers need to know which will help with bow stearing and controlling your kayak.  Repetition will give you muscle memory and muscle memory is what you want when your dealing with "nasty surprises" not another river notch in your river log. 

 

 I would put the first 5 rivers on your list including tummy at low flow on a list called good to go must lap as much as possible.  Leave robe and tye alone for a while and master  every boof and eddy on your must lap as much as possible list. Maybe the only thing making lil chee harder is the wood potential and yes remoteness but get beta and use good creeking judgment wether to put in or not which is another skill all in it's own.

 

 I dont mean to sound like an asshole but Sometimes I dont feel like running robe and will go do the Cooper or middle middle for sh*t sakes because your not always feeling it, !but when I paddle those runs even though there easy to me it''s still a river with possible danger or "hazards" lurking and  im paddling my ass off looking for training potential and working on my game and stroke proficiency.  Or at least thinking about it from time to time.

 

 You have a fine list going 1 through 6 and I'm not trying to say theres not a method here but there all pretty much the same.. I think at this point in the game the danger in tum is relative to the danger in the lil chee.

 

 I would say instead of a list of rivers make a list of skills you dont have and want to master and make that your goal for progressing on any river you run !! get with someone you like to watch kayak or admire and go with them if you can and always try to paddle with people who are better than you on easy runs. I know it's hard to do and the groups are elite here but folks like brett JP and I are always switching it up and am out on easy creeking runs all the time, woking on game and the pure love of the river !!


Oh and most of all .. as long as you have fun!!!


Posted By: Travisimo
Date Posted: 30 May 2013 at 2:27am
Run the Ohane when it gets low... prettier than most any of those runs... toward the top in difficulty until it gets low.

PM me when it gets low in the Summer... I'll be there as often as I can.

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H2O please


Posted By: JayB
Date Posted: 30 May 2013 at 9:54am
-Definitely good points. FWIW I just cut and pasted that list from Jame's original post (at the start of the thread) from 2009. What you describe is basically the plan I've been on since 2009 or so, but since you mentioned Tumwater as an overlooked run for folks looking to build skills I thought I'd try to get a handle on where you ranked it (at low flows) relative to other runs since the main point of the thread was to give folks who were trying to calibrate their progression some benchmarks.

Obviously the nature of boating makes it impossible to do that perfectly, and most of the best content in the thread (including your comments) came from people pointing out the flaws and limitations inherent in trying to rank rivers in terms of difficulty...but I still think it's useful, and I've run into a number of people who have found the lists and all of the comments on this thread to be a great resource.


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-Jay


Posted By: Jed Hawkes
Date Posted: 30 May 2013 at 11:37am
Originally posted by FLUID

 I would say instead of a list of rivers make a list of skills you dont have and want to master and make that your goal for progressing on any river you run


This is the key, when it comes to creeking, mastering the boof stroke will be the chockstone that brings all the creeking skills together. being able to identify the intricacies of the boof and how you want to drive towards it will change how you creek. Being able to look downstream and say "i'm going to delay boof this" it the hardest part about learning to creek, not all boofs are straight-forward-approach-at-90-degrees-and-crank-at-the-lip-and-get-a-rock-assisted-boof. Sometimes they're faders, delayed, into the eddy, down the eddyline, sweep boofs, rock boofs, dufek-to-boof, and so much more.

Being able to quickly identify those from upstream in the moments before you actually have to make the boof will change everything and you won't really dial in until you've been creeking for a little while.

A good place for this practice is the MM at 3000 and Sky at 2000-6000, if your creative and are looking for those little 1.5 foot boofs into the eddy you'll really progress.

Good luck, and practice those skills every-time you paddle.

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The line will become apparent
978-273-7723


Posted By: jP
Date Posted: 30 May 2013 at 11:56am
Well, n8r78, I think It's cool that you revived this thread. I stayed away because sometimes, when no one else participates in these discussions, I feel as though I am monopolizing the thread, or chasing PPeeps away w/ my heavy handed opining. Awesome to hear you got on Icicle, sorry I was busy trying to raft guide somewhere else.

Fluid, did you go to a PSYCHIC MEDIUM or someone? Because you sound like you are channeling the Undead jP pretty well . Saying some things better than I could, in fact. I agree it has more to do w/ seat time, and repitition of moves. On that note, Nate, if Lower Icicle wasn't on the fringe of your ability, I'd say you may have gained another "step" on this "ladder". It is closer to where you live than the Cooper, if I'm correct, so I would try to get out on it a bunch more this summer while it is in. Maybe Upper Ici at lower flows (you can always portage a drop or two).

Now let's take a humorous look at this whole "step ladder" metaphor, because it does over simplify things as fluid pointed out. One time I was paddling some flatwater w/ Bret The Waterwacko, and we were talking about this concept. Suddenly we started to free associate. Maybe he started it but it went something like this...
"Step it up. Step down"
"Step off!"
"Step Back!"
"Step aside"
"Step around"
"Step over"
"Step forward"

Ok now I'm adding a few, but I think if you ask anyone in the game they can tell you the journey is a mix of all of those at varying points.

The saying "step it up" has always bothered me because I feel one should already occupy the step that the new run in question is on. And, if the foundation upon which you set up your step ladder isn't solid, you may fall and bust your ass when you go to change that lightbulb. Fluid's perscription is a good recipe for having a solid foundation. I'd say though that once you are a few steps up on this ladder you want to hang out and get comfortable before moving too far up too soon.

New runs challenge a boater and therefore you can progress, but as Fluid said repitition is great because you can hit the same boof on the same run over and over and judge your consistency at hitting these moves time and time again. So having the local favorite that challenges you is key. You want the consistency to hit those moves consistently. Then when you scout a new rapid you are about to run that has you on edge you can say "that manuever is very similar to the one on ________ Creek, and I nail that move every time. I got this..."

I have exiled myself to only Icicle all season. It has consistently been running quite high. A few times it schooled me pretty good, but within my capacity to cope and deal (because I was smart to not push too hard against some of the rapids and drops- I portage what I need to when I feel the need.) Then I went to Robe after being away since October, and slayed every line. Just crushed the last sunshine boof- it felt SO GOOD! I think it was the repitition.

But then again, went to Top Tye the next day (a run I consider significantly easier than Robe) and finnally got "initiated". Tooled. Chundered. It SUCKED. No, I didn't swim, and didn't hit rocks too hard while upside down, but a buddy dropped in behind me and got hurt. All because I got a foot off my line above the lip. And it was a straight up medium flow. Maybe he was a little close, but I junked up my lines above there, too, so he caught up to me quick. And, he probably wanted to see where to go, being less familiar w/ the run. One moral here might be don't follow too close, another topic we need to discuss, but also don't get too comfortable that you get complacent. (Would some better verbal beta above the drop prevented this?) It sucks wondering "what if" once The River has dealt its hand. It is a sport full of risks we take for granted. It sucks to see a friend get hurt by your boat, even if "blame" is difficult or impossible to assign to either of you.

Overall we have to try to always boat w/ our human brain and human heart, and not give the reigns over to the monkey brain.

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Posted By: NateW
Date Posted: 31 May 2013 at 11:59am
Ahh the confidence I'd built over the last few days smacked down by the Icicle. Went upsidedown - missed a roll smacked and my shoulder. A wee bit sore to say the least today and it definitely doesn't feel 'right'. I don't think it will knock me out for too long but I'll definitely be a little less confident on my next lap.


Posted By: SOPBOATER
Date Posted: 31 May 2013 at 2:00pm
shake that sh*t off.   don't forget it, but process it (off the river over a beer). then boat with the same or more confidence (u survived, and are now smarter). hesitation in the car or at the Putin is good sometimes, however its never good in the seat of your craft. the trick is being able to Jedi mind trick yourself when u need to and just not putting in when prudent for you to do so. sometimes on the learning ladder of life and boating its hard to know.


Posted By: jP
Date Posted: 02 Jun 2013 at 2:00am
Yeah, and while Lower Icicle is the gateway to all things Icicle (typically) it is not a good place to flip. As Fluid pointed out, not flipping is generally pretty virtuous for the prudent boater. Sure, its gonna happen, but thats why more water is better, not less. I'm not hitting rocks when I flip on Icicle because they are liberally covered w/ water. Then when the water is lower it is comparitively less powerful, and I'm less likely to flip. But since flipping in higher water is more likely (powerfull scaled up features), obviously a solid combat roll is key.

I agree w/ SOPwithCamelBOATER:
It sucks that happened, but shake it off. Do what's necessary to heal that thing, then try to get back on that horse. Nate, I'd say get a hold of me when you are ready. I know Icicle very well and would be glad to put down some good lines for ya to follow any time I can.





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Posted By: jP
Date Posted: 02 Jun 2013 at 2:01am
Words of wisdom about listening to that spidey sense (SOPwithCamelBOATER)

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Posted By: jP
Date Posted: 02 Jun 2013 at 2:44am
Sorry to continue, but the "step it up" discussion must not only include our wish lists (which as Fluid pointed out can be a misleading way to conceptualize things), but we must also consider flow ranges, as just was discussed in the Coopdate thread.

PPeeps who want to "step it up" should take a familiar run and keep adding water. While you can control which put in you decide to drive to, controlling the flow you find when you get there...

Well, that's all up to mother nature now ain't it?
Sometimes its cut and dried but often flows are a vague thing to guage. Especially if its some obscure run out of the Bennette Book no one hardly ever goes to boat.

Maybe you show up to Jefferson and its f**king raspy 50 grit low. But hell you been driving all morning and now here you are. Sure, you can eat $4.00/gallon, but most boaters are gonna put on because they are there. Nevermind a little peer pressure. So in this example I guess its good to have some ELF boating experience and skill so you can save the plastic on your poor abused boat and at least not crack it. Maybe spare the skin on your knuckles while your at it.

Or the converse- say you show up to the Grays and never ran it before. Its chocolate grey milk and looks kinda pumping. Its good to know that despite maybe being on the higher end of recommended flows, you can handle the extra push. Maybe you and your group are now upgrading your itinerary to a more adventurous day than planned. Again, never mind a little peer pressure, even un expressed, subtle and below the surface peer pressure.

...and sometimes its raining and the guages don't update and sh*t spikes surprisingly hard and fast after you've already put on. You just booked your tickets, the train has left the station. Hopefully this proverbial 'you' (we) can leverage our skill and experience and complete the river trip in a sensible manner. Most of the time, unless there is catastrophic gear failure or injury, hiking off a run is lame It usually happens to people who aren't experienced, didn't research the run, or simply didn't have the sense to realize they didn't belong there.

All this is to say that cultivating a wide range of experience at different water levels is very important. Permanent low water boaters seldom progress to a level of proficiency required to truly explore new runs comfortably. (Not talking about IK's- they are a different animal altogether, and boat ELF flows better. But they are also limited to those lower flows, generally).

So rather than using the cliche "stepping it up" let's say progression instead. Boaters who want to progress will run their familiar runs at higher flows. I went off a year and a half ago about running the Green at higher flows.

Bam. Perfect place to start. If you already know the Green at 2400 or so, go run it with someone who is better than you at 3200. Then try it out at 3700. Sure, as you up the ante you'll need an appropriate level of fitness and a more earnest comitment to rolling on the first, second or third attempt. Highwater swimming should be avoided, or you should scout and consider portaging more. Don't avoid the Green at 3200 because you are afraid of the Nozzle. Hell, portage that sh*t if you got to. If you can't creep up to the the rapid at higher flows so you can portage it, you shouldn't have put on to begin w/.

I'd say running the Green at higher flows is a great doorway to paddling bigger water in general, and a perfect prerequisite for runs like Icicle and Robe.
And howbout that wonderful Sky? Why is it that so many PPeeps are out running it under 5,000 and then from 6,000 up attendence falls off? And so close to Seattle. The Sky should just be swarming w/ kayakers every weekend, yet remains largely a solitary experience. Sure, Boulder Drop at 7-9,000 might scare ya or even swim ya. But that's a great place to "step it up" because everyone knows BAD ASS B.D. You know what you are gonna get. Easy to scout, easy to test yourself in a controlled setting, ect. Man that rapid still challenges me and keeps me honest about where I'm really at.




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Posted By: NateW
Date Posted: 14 Jun 2013 at 11:31am
Got out on the Entiat and ran this section:
http://www.professorpaddle.com/rivers/riverdetails.asp?riverid=433

Probably 950 or so yesterday and was dropping out. Overall the run went well, but this is definitely a step up from Lower Icicle in the continuous nature of the run even though I think the run is a bit cleaner and friendlier overall. Didn't stay upright which is frustrating but no major drama.

I guess this run is a bit out of the way for the westsiders but I thought it was quite fun. The section from fox creek campground to the last rapid would actually be a good 'beginner' creek boating run. It's easier than Peshastin and you could work up the courage to run the last drop.



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