Trip Discussion's: Winter Wonderland on the Sky Discussion Thread
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Winter Wonderland on the Sky Discussion Thread

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URL: http://www.professorpaddle.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=7665
Printed Date: 29 Mar 2024 at 3:44am


Topic: Winter Wonderland on the Sky Discussion Thread
Posted By: RemAcct2
Subject: Winter Wonderland on the Sky Discussion Thread
Date Posted: 19 Dec 2008 at 6:26pm

This is the Winter Wonderland on the Sky discussion thread. Please post any questions below.

Remember the actual Trip Details are located on the http://Professorpaddle.com/ppages/rte/tripdetails.asp?task=View&TripId=681 - Winter Wonderland on the Sky | Trip Page

Should be a great day on Saturday, and the scenery is spectacular...  Dress warmly.




Replies:
Posted By: Guests
Date Posted: 19 Dec 2008 at 6:50pm
Leif-

I drove past the sky yesterday, highly recommend NOT running it at the moment.

**Ice bergs are floating in flat water, frozen eddies, pile ups of ice in larger pools could be forming ice bridges. I saw one appearing to form bellow the confluence. Also, tomorrow is supposed to be extremely cold with sustained winds of 50-70mph (see NOAA high wind advisory). It is supposed to be the worst in the cascade foothills.

Seriously, I would recommend that everyone stay off the river tomorrow.

Please advise.
d

EDIT: The weather service is using words such as 'lethal and disastrous' to describe the winds scheduled to hit tomorrow afternoon/evening.

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Posted By: PaulGamache
Date Posted: 19 Dec 2008 at 7:20pm
Think I'll sit this one out and watch all the cars around Seattle crashing everywhere Nascar style.

I'd take KTW advice on this on Leif, plenty of way cooler ways to go out then freezing to death on the sky...


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27/320 & 1 bootie


Posted By: RemAcct2
Date Posted: 19 Dec 2008 at 8:10pm
As far as I can tell, winds shouldn't kick up untill evening. The scenery is spectacular, and flows quite low. May call off - I need to finish off Christmas shoping anyway.

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Posted By: Guests
Date Posted: 19 Dec 2008 at 9:09pm
The wind isnt the worst of your worries man.... *ice*

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Posted By: ashleygoesdisco
Date Posted: 19 Dec 2008 at 9:37pm
Geez guys. Paddling with all the freshies 30minutes up the road?

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Ashley Duffus
Well behaved women rarely make history.
www.naiyadays.blogspot.com


Posted By: RemAcct2
Date Posted: 19 Dec 2008 at 9:44pm
Boarded in pow the last two days. No more fresh until Sun/Mon. Had to hike today to get the goods. Need to work other set of muscles.

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Posted By: Jeff
Date Posted: 19 Dec 2008 at 10:44pm
Have to check the conditions in the am.  If it looks sketchy, we bail, but if not, I gotta get on the water!  Maybe the Powerhouse as a last resort! 
 
Bless me Fibnok, for I have sinned!  It has been over three weeks since my last kayaking trip! I have commited the sins of working too much and not boating enough, the sin of thinking of other sports before I thought of boating, and my only saving redemption was that I watched at least one issue of LVM while drinking beer while frozen in  in Denver!  Need to KAYAK!!!!!!!


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"What could possibly go wrong?"
www.flickr.com/photos/jeffdwyer/


Posted By: Texas Dave
Date Posted: 20 Dec 2008 at 7:49am
You gotta be crazy to go out today.  It's 0 degrees this morning in Granite Falls.  Just a little too nippy for me.

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Dave


Posted By: huckin harms
Date Posted: 20 Dec 2008 at 7:56am
rob mc gibbin is planning on getting out today. not sure bout myself yet. ktw is right aobut the ice formations on the water, but lines are still open whre the water is moving. swimming would be very dangerous. that said the scenery would be sublime.
a note on pass condtions- only two lifts open last 2 days- hogs & skyline with long lift lines.


Posted By: Liz
Date Posted: 20 Dec 2008 at 7:57am
http://sajwan.files.wordpress.com/2008/04/calvin_and_hobbes-snow_brain_kill.jpg -
 
 
http://bunk.chronosquare.com/images/Thumbs/Snow%20Sharks%20Cartoon.jpg - http://sajwan.files.wordpress.com/2008/04/calvin_and_hobbes-snow_brain_kill.jpg -
 
I wanted to find a picture of a kayaking snowman, but no luck.  So, I'm posting these instead... 
 
 
 


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Posted By: dragorossinw
Date Posted: 20 Dec 2008 at 8:08am
I've got about a foot of snow here at my place by the EFL and I'm scared to leave my house.  Will someone bring me a meals on wheels please?

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Tony Z
dragorossinorthwest@yahoo.com
www.nookiekayaking.us
www.dragorossi.com
www.donkeyfIip.com


Posted By: dave
Date Posted: 20 Dec 2008 at 10:04am
Cold is not what I want today... we had 4 inch icicles forming off of our helmets last weekend.

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Nomad


Posted By: Guests
Date Posted: 20 Dec 2008 at 11:14am
I truly cannot believe that anyone is considering going out today. The disregard for safety, especially from one of the better paddlers mentioned, is shameful and arrogant. To think that you can combat the cold conditions is simply foolhardy.

I will repeat myself. THERE IS ICE IN THE EDDIES. And, since stating the facts did not seem to work, I will explain them as well. Ice covering eddies means that a swimmer would have to break through ice. You could end up UNDER THE ICE.

In the near 0 degree temps and 32 degree water, you would probably be hypothermic instantly and have a lot of difficulty swimming to the frozen eddie through the slush.

You guys need to realize that although the river is class III/IV in regular weather, you need to consider it class IV/V (at least). You should not only consider this run class IV/V in difficulty but also in danger. In the case of safety, I cannot help but be brutally honest: Not a single one of you is a class V paddler. Rob Mickibbon should know better. As a good boater he should know better. He should realize the complete lack of safety. He should also be a better example for the community. I can't believe it.

You guys are probably getting close to the river right now so hopefully you come to these realizations on your own. I hope that none of you is injured or worse in this endeavor.



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Posted By: RemAcct2
Date Posted: 20 Dec 2008 at 1:12pm
Trip went well. Minimal ice (takeout and put in). Best scenery of the year.

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Posted By: septimus prime
Date Posted: 20 Dec 2008 at 2:17pm
Great time today!


Posted By: jP
Date Posted: 20 Dec 2008 at 2:54pm
"Kayak The World" huh? Listen, son, I'm obviously gonna have to set you straight on a few points.

Unfortunately, It'll have to wait till I get to a full sized keyboard to adequately express myself.

For now let me just say that the sky. Was absollutely beautiful today, and those whom you've insulted exhibited more than adequate skill to have fun, be safe, and stay warm.

If paddling in a winter wonderland freaks you out so much, stay in front of your computer. Wait. I guess that's what you did.

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Posted By: Guests
Date Posted: 20 Dec 2008 at 2:57pm
Yes, I did. I respect the dangers that kayaking on a day like today presents. I don't need to remind you, jp, about what can happen when you disrespect adverse conditions on the sky.

Anyway, that's the last I'll say on this. I don't want to get into a long argument with you. I know that some people reading this will see me as the jerk who overreacts about safety. Hopefully some people will take a bit away from it and exercise caution with these conditions. I hope that you guys keep getting lucky.

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Posted By: dave
Date Posted: 20 Dec 2008 at 3:27pm
After boating last weekend on the Upper Green Gorge in 20 deg weather I will have to agree with KTW. One should really consider their competency level when going out in these conditions.

Just be safe and know what you will be in for and be prepared for it. Cause if you swim in subzero temps it will not be a happy time!

Otherwise if you are prepared have a great time out there! I know it is just to cold for me when it is like this, my hands just hurt so badly I cant hardly stand it. If I could just keep my hands warm then I would be throwing down my creekboat in the ice!


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Nomad


Posted By: James
Date Posted: 20 Dec 2008 at 3:48pm
I think it is crazy and I wish I could have been out there with you guys... Family is in town so alas, I had to skip out.

Although some will not understand or agree, KTW is very accurate about the dangers of kayaking in cold weather and the need to be safe.  I am glad people in our community care enough to be the unpopular voice. Thanks KTW!

In the future though, you gotta respect everyone's right to make decisions. Voice Concern, Make the statement, but don't cut people down, and don't be so abrasive.

The classification of a class V paddler is something best left to another thread, but I will say that your certainly off base in your statement that there are no class V paddlers other than Rob on this run. The presence of truth is absent in this aforementioned statement, in that Rob is not a class V paddler either. To encapsulate, he is more of a Soul Boater. Which is of the shit that defies classification. Mingled with the consideration that he himself did not even post - Why respond with agro? Furthermore, there are several duteous class V paddlers in the aforementioned posts, so I would conclude this to be a statement of inaccuracy.

In an effort of final capitulation, if you could have stopped after the second post it would have been optimal.  Indubitably I need not be posting at all either... but after a nonsense voicemail from JP I felt inclined to let him know I was laughing all morning over this.

In summary to re-state the imperitive of this thread, the hidden dangers of ice, in rivers, mixed drinks or the sky should not be under estimated. Think about the changes to our sport if the Inuits never went out and paddled when ice was present... I think that is the root of paddling so we all might have been in trouble... if they were not so skilled and responsible.

So as a compromise I suggest that the folks who paddled the sky today, don't ever consider doing that again unless they can: A) roll with a large harp seal in there lap while keeping your hands behind your head - greenland style, or B) Run class W+ with a paddle covered in walrus fat while holding a lit candle. Walrus fat is flamable by the way so you might stick with option A.


Posted By: septimus prime
Date Posted: 20 Dec 2008 at 4:39pm
KTW, I don't need you telling me who or what I am or not. I know who I am as a boater and made a choice. We choose our own paths.




Posted By: jP
Date Posted: 20 Dec 2008 at 5:21pm
well now that I have a full stomach and a satisfied heart, well, I warned you I'd be back.  Thanks to all of the reasonable thoughts expressed by everyone... except YOU "Kayak The World". It's easy to spout reasonable sounding safety tips from your armchair kayak. But they only serve as a vehicle for your true intentions:

To cast YOURSELF as some kind of authority, and bolster your own ego. and thus this is now the subject of this thread. I've been trying to be a nice guy around here lately, and not be so much of an asshole that I admit (laughingly, with perhaps a tinge of regret) I've been in the past. But you've unleashed the venom, son. If you don't want long arguments, don't start them.




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Posted By: jP
Date Posted: 20 Dec 2008 at 5:37pm
Originally posted by kayaktheworld

I truly cannot believe that anyone is considering going out today. The disregard for safety, especially from one of the better paddlers mentioned, is shameful and arrogant. To think that you can combat the cold conditions is simply foolhardy.

---So why is it "shamefull and Arrogant"?  There was ABSOLUTELY NO DISREGARD FOR SAFETY. For the record, the most dangerous part was post-holing down to the put in at Cable Drop. Once we got paddling, well, my toes were cold from walking through snow. Then, they WARMED UP!! Drysuits are AMAZING!! I layered up so thick, my hands were RADIATING heat from my pogies. Fingers and toes were warm the whole time.

I will repeat myself. THERE IS ICE IN THE EDDIES. And, since stating the facts did not seem to work, I will explain them as well. Ice covering eddies means that a swimmer would have to break through ice. You could end up UNDER THE ICE.

----- Yeah, there were large ice sheets at the following locations: In the big eddy at Cable drop Put-in, and in the big eddy at the Split rock take out. Yeah, if you act like a dpishit, or aren't Qualified to be out there, you could probably find yourself in trouble. It's true. So if you want ot paddle in such conditions, yuo MUST NOT FUCK UP. Don't flip, don't lose control, and it's just another trip down the sky.

In the near 0 degree temps and 32 degree water, you would probably be hypothermic instantly and have a lot of difficulty swimming to the frozen eddie through the slush.

---damn right. you have no bussiness being out there if you might swim. maybe it's good YOU weren't there? I don't know. Don't know you. Don't know how you boat. I just know from the way you shoot your mouth off that you are an alarmist.

You guys need to realize that although the river is class III/IV in regular weather, you need to consider it class IV/V (at least). You should not only consider this run class IV/V in difficulty but also in danger. In the case of safety, I cannot help but be brutally honest: Not a single one of you is a class V paddler. Rob Mickibbon should know better. As a good boater he should know better. He should realize the complete lack of safety. He should also be a better example for the community. I can't believe it.

---First off, Rob wasn't wereing ANY pants. OR any other clothes but a life jacket. He had icicles collecting on his armpit hairs, but that didn't stop him from throwing down at Luch Hole. Just kiddin, Rob DIDN'T EVEN GO. His gear was frozen from some previous icy trip. He wanted me to tell you though that next time he'll call and ask your permission before he goes out paddling.
-----Second, Rob is everybit of a class V paddler, and anyone who knows him knows that. You're a f**king idiot. Don't try to project your comfort zone onto other people. Whatever you do PLEASE refrain from trying to tell people who they are, esspeccially when you don't even know them, or how they paddle.

You guys are probably getting close to the river right now so hopefully you come to these realizations on your own. I hope that none of you is injured or worse in this endeavor.

---your token comment about hoping we're not injured is so transparently inscincere:
A way to cap off your bucket full of crap and make you sound like you care.
Well, guess what? we're all ok, we had a GREAT time, we were safe, and stayed warm.


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Posted By: PaulGamache
Date Posted: 20 Dec 2008 at 5:42pm
Everyone needs to back off KTW and take a second to read this:

http://www.boatertalk.com/forum/BoaterTalk/1591242

It's from Will Pruett who was at the NF Chick on Dec 11th 2008 when the solo boater drowned in the flood stage river.  I won't summerize his sentiment you'll have to read it and interprete it.

Personally I welcome people telling me when something is a bad idea and if it's a really bad idea I hope they scream, yell, and try to talk some sense into me.  Most of the time I'll ignore it if I'm deadset on doing something but hope that when I'm about to do something that will really injury me or worse my friends are yelling at me not to do it especially if all the warning signs are there.

In my opinion, kayaking the sky today was a bad idea.  Maybe not for JP or Leif or anyone else who went but for me it was far too dangerous.  Swims can happen anytime, anywhere, to any boater regardless of skill level.  Pins, working in holes, getting hit with a rock in the back when you flip, skirt malfunction, dislocated shoulder, heart attack, etc can all lead to you swimming.  

Even if you're safe, what about the people you are on the water w/ you where this can happen to them, are you ready to deal w/ that? To enter into freezing cold water and from all reports containing floating ice, the chances of survival are minimal at best.  Again in my opinion this is not a safe means of paddling, I'm sure others will disagree.

Glad you all had an amazing safe trip on the sky.  I spent the day pushing slidding cars all over the streets of Seattle. 

Tomorrow we're going to go snow yaking down the streets if anyone wants to go!


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27/320 & 1 bootie


Posted By: jP
Date Posted: 20 Dec 2008 at 5:54pm
I'm not done yet, Kidd-o. I'd like to say I've been paddling since you were in diapers, but I can't. Because the truth is I've been paddling since before you were born. Quite likely been paddling class V since before you were born.

Septimus Prime probably said it best. You started a flaming war, and I love it! because I need those flames to thaw out my frozen gear and dry it in time for my next trip!

"Kayak The World", you'll have an awfull hard time kayaking the world with your attitude. There are so many ways I could cut you down, but who wants to read all that? I mean, I'm guilty enough already, but what  can I say? you opened up another can of the Jerry Springer Show here. And I'm having FUN with it, you mis-guided young whippersnapper!!
Look, just lighten up. Of course safety is important. Your reasonable points, as James pointed out, are tainted by your need to try to demean others. I can take it, but I'm bothered that you insulted my friends. I really am.

Take my advice, "Kayak The World", the paddling WORLD is a small one. Always has been, and still is. Carefull who you try to put yourself above. It's petty bullshit. You're just another member (a VERY new member) of the community. You are not some Law Maker or safety Sherrif. Show some respect, and it'll come back to you. Be a punk, and get punked.

Dude, If I ever meet you, I'm still prepared to shake your hand and laugh about all this silly theater. Let's hope you're man enough to do the same. All in good fun.


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Posted By: Guests
Date Posted: 20 Dec 2008 at 6:00pm
Man, you act like you are teaching me a lesson...

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Posted By: RemAcct2
Date Posted: 20 Dec 2008 at 6:08pm
Paul - snowyacking in Seattle? That doesn't sound safe... Then again, neither does being a pedestrian in downtown seattle with the crazy drivers in the snow.

David - in regards to your last post...you (everyone, for that matter) has much they can learn from JP. Listen to your elders.

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Posted By: jP
Date Posted: 20 Dec 2008 at 6:11pm
Paul, you are entitled to your opinion, and I'm not going to judge you (for running a 100+' waterfall) on the way you personally decide to craft your river experience. But you gotta see how silly you come off from my own perspective. Your feats and stunts dropping those waterfalls is WAY more hazardous (in MY opinion).

The point is, to each his (or her) own. Ok? I don't knock the hazards and risks associated with paddling (under ANY conditions)-- I'm knocking KTW's sophmoric encapsulation of those risks, but mostly the HIGH and MIGHTY tone.

Again: The point:

Kayaking is a risky sport. PERIOD. If you don't have the ability to evaluate what is or is not appropriate for your own personal skill level, you (hypothetical"you") need a different activity. Septimus, Leif, and myself were completely safe out there. Everyone paddled compitantly. Why do we have to be put in some sensatioalized position where we have to defend ourselves? I'll tell you why: Because one person feels it's ok to project their fears on us, and then others leap to his defense.

Well you can also die on the Sky on a warm summer day. You people miss the point.

Jesus christ this is like my swim on the Sky all over again. Didn't anyone learn anything from THAT community discussion? I see all kinds of people get in over their heads on FITW, ROBE, ICICLE-- But because it's in some sanctioned parameters, it's somehow ok-- Even though they risk MY safety chasing after them and rescuing them and their shit. All part of the adventure though, isn't it? If you don't like adventure, no one's making you paddle.

BTW, Paul, Snow Yakking in the Streets? Sounds unsafe. I don't think you should risk it. You might get hit by a Fed Ex truck or a tour bus that's headed for the retaining wall above I-5.


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Posted By: PaulGamache
Date Posted: 20 Dec 2008 at 6:12pm
.....to be clear I've paddled w/ Dave or "Kayak the World" and he is definitely a SOLID boater.  More so than a lot of the people yelling about how offended they are.  I look forward to paddling w/ him again to not only improve my skills but to follow his lines down any run anywhere.

Take his advice as a compliment to the fact that he doesn't want to see you or anyone else die on the river.  I hope that where ever I go in life people like Dave are there to be a voice of reason, even if they sling insults and disrespect towards me.


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27/320 & 1 bootie


Posted By: jP
Date Posted: 20 Dec 2008 at 6:13pm
Ok, KTW, I'm done spewing venom. But you do have a lot to learn. We all do. But we can only be willing to learn for ourselves.

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Posted By: dave
Date Posted: 20 Dec 2008 at 6:19pm
wow, I got to get cought up here, alot of reading!

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Nomad


Posted By: jP
Date Posted: 20 Dec 2008 at 6:21pm
Yeah Paul, well that sounds reasonable and good. I'm trying to close this discussion off, but I'm human, and as likely to want the Last Word as anyone. 

One morel to take away from this deteriorating disscussion is that we all Kayak to have fun. And we should be kayaking also to enjoy the company of our fellow paddlers. Kinda hard to do that while we are sitting here insulting each other, huh?

Tell you what I'm going to do. I'm going to post a trip report about this day on the river. Because, (and I admit my own guilt) this discussion has been allowed to overshadow what and incredible day on the river it was. It really was fine. For those with sufficient skill and gear and preparation (including logistics), days like today can be rich with wonder and beauty. Can we discuss that? I hope so. So if you're interested in that, rather than all this stupid shit, please read it, and I'll share what we saw today, and how we made the trip as safe and fun as it was...


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Posted By: PaulGamache
Date Posted: 20 Dec 2008 at 6:27pm
JP the point:  Running big drops I am aware of the risk and dangers and accept them.  I think what Dave was getting at was that everyone should think of the sky as a class V (VI) run today because of the increased hazards and not treat this like a run of the mill run down the sky.   Posting on a community forum where anyone and everyone can read it may encourage those not prepared for such consequences to engage in such a risk.

If you want we can settle this w/ some good ole WWF in the Shed again

I agree snow kayaking in Seattle tomorrow will be far more dangerous then your sky run today...but I bet it's going to be one hell of a time!


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27/320 & 1 bootie


Posted By: PaulGamache
Date Posted: 20 Dec 2008 at 6:28pm
BTW kegger at Hawthorne's tonight...don't tell him I posted this 

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27/320 & 1 bootie


Posted By: dave
Date Posted: 20 Dec 2008 at 6:30pm
Originally posted by leifkirchoff

Paul - snowyacking in Seattle? That doesn't sound safe... Then again, neither does being a pedestrian in downtown seattle with the crazy drivers in the snow.

David - in regards to your last post...you (everyone, for that matter) has much they can learn from JP. Listen to your elders.


Are you talking to me Leif? I actually have been boating since you were in diapers! And JP is not my elder, I may be older than him even though I don't look it!

So there!


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Nomad


Posted By: dave
Date Posted: 20 Dec 2008 at 6:32pm
Oh, i didnt know the KTW was a Dave too....

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Nomad


Posted By: Tobin
Date Posted: 20 Dec 2008 at 6:54pm

Holy Fing WOW!!

   I am pretty sure I woke up this mornign and was able to wipe my own ass???
  However that stated, I appreciate and listen to the advice from anyone willing to give it.
Thank You 
  I agree with KTW, and his assessment of the dangers, and I also agree with everyones right to make the decision for themselves. We are free to make individual choice.
  The part of this thread that I find the most distressing is that many people felt it is a place to posture about their abilities and why others should listen to them??
  WTF??  Here lets just drop trow and see who's is bigger.
  Is it that being a competant kayaker and willing to help others isn't enough? Now people have to be recognized for their contributuion? How many years they have been paddling somehow makes them a better person?  Dicks grow with paddling years??
  I am not discounting anyone's opinion, just mocking your self serving manner of presenting it!


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Sure?


Posted By: RemAcct2
Date Posted: 20 Dec 2008 at 6:55pm
Dave - was addressing that comment to Mr. Spiegel, not you.

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Posted By: James
Date Posted: 20 Dec 2008 at 6:56pm
I was just trying to help each side see the others view before it went crazy... I don't think it ever got crazy ... good job guys ... and before I sign off for a short weekend posting hiatus, I would like to mention two things with a closing question.

1. Encapsulation was used 3 times so far but I used it first.
2. I had more big words than anyone else, and walrus blubber really is extremely flammable.

Is there a greenland roll with burning fat that has to stay lit?
(I can't see how a bunch of rowdy eskimo's did not do this already)


Posted By: dave
Date Posted: 20 Dec 2008 at 7:20pm
This is great stuff!!! And I thought I would be bored tonight!!!!

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Nomad


Posted By: RemAcct2
Date Posted: 20 Dec 2008 at 7:43pm
Paul - not to add fuel to the fire, however, since I posted the trip, I want to comment on one thing.

First - I want to mention that I deleted the trip after these concerns were brought up. That said, I always make sure folks going on trips I post have appropriate gear, and in the case of this trip, I certainly would have an appropriate conversation with anyone who I felt wasn't up to the task at hand.

Frankly, I'd like to see more trips posted, in all classes. I don't understand why it isn't all right to post class V trips. PDX does it, why not us. The community should be open, folks should feel comfortable in sharing their plans. I know there is worry about inexperienced paddlers signing up for a class V trip, but ultimately, PP is a conduit to communicate with all of our paddling colleagues. It is far easier and certainly more inclusive for me to post a trip, rather than call everyone I know. If someone signs up who you are unfamiliar with, or don't think should be on the trip - call them. Easy as that. I do think PP sign-up should require a phone in the profile to sign up for trips.

This comes down to a point I have made on several occasions that Seattle (and Bellingham) boaters are more cliqueish (is that a word?) than PDX boaters, and I have often wondered why. Regardless of the reason, I think PP is a way to change that behavior, which I believe to be a detriment to the community.

Bottom line - I like to post trips. It's much easier than calling fifty people.

Don't you agree?

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Posted By: jP
Date Posted: 20 Dec 2008 at 8:23pm
I do, although I have plenty of phone numbers to call as well. When I want to paddle class V (and I do. so what? dosen't make me special. Thousands of people do as well. ) I tend to want to paddle with people whose boating habits I'm familiar with. And I respect it when others act on those sensibilities. I wouldn't have wanted to be out there today with just anyone.

Leif, you were eager to go, and I knew I would feel comfortable out there in those conditions with you. Otherwise I would have declined. I didn't get to paddle with you as often as I may have wanted to this year, so this was a great trip!

Also, with regards to the trip planner, if you openly post the meeting time and place to the World F*ckin Wide Web, be perpared for some unknown variables. There are ways to screen people.

Honestly the way I see people willy nilly "leading" others down class III and IV runs is way more questionable from a safety standpoint than what we did today. No one needed babysitting out there.

Funny how people's persceptions about what is and what is not safe differs, which brings me back to my central point.

Damn it, 'yall need to read "The Squirt Book".


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Posted By: jP
Date Posted: 20 Dec 2008 at 8:33pm
James--the answer to your question is "Yes" for some, and "No" for others.

D4--you may be older and wiser, but I look better in panty hose

Tobin--No one ever mentioned dick size--that's solely your thought process at work. If someone makes untrue careless statements and insults, I have a right and obligation to defend my friends and myself, by stating FACTS to repudiate baseless claims, OK?

Now stop ruining the winter wonderland. Read the trip report, or shut up. Or start your own thread about the hazards of Hypothermia. Just don't drag people's names in the mud while you're doin it. It's not constructive. That's my main beef.




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Posted By: jP
Date Posted: 20 Dec 2008 at 8:38pm
Well sorry, I guess you can't read the report. I typed it out, but somehow it dissappeared into the ether. I guess the river fairies are up to their old tricks again. I'll retype it and try to post it tomorrow.

It was really a special and unique trip.


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🐋🐋🐋🐋🐋🐋🐋🐋🐋🐋🐋


Posted By: rockarolla
Date Posted: 21 Dec 2008 at 1:06am
Ice is nice.             The steeper the better!

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Dave Moroles.   253 241 8550.


Posted By: Jeff
Date Posted: 21 Dec 2008 at 10:20am
WOW!  I wish I was able to make the trip yesterday, but this Shitstorm is getting ridiculous!  I missed out 'cuz I was making sure that my snowmobiles were in running order for some urban snowmobiling!  Good times last night in my neighborhood, and I'm headed out again right now!!!!!  Can't get to the river now, so I'll enjoy the water (frozen as snow) before it gets there.  Either way, I get time out playin'!!!!!

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"What could possibly go wrong?"
www.flickr.com/photos/jeffdwyer/


Posted By: funnywater
Date Posted: 21 Dec 2008 at 1:44pm
yes, a most ridiculous shitstorm, if cheaply entertaining. i've been swirling around this discussion for a bit, and after some reflection, allow my own thoughts to bubble to the surface... bear with me here there's a lot i want to comment on.

KTW and WETMOUSE: you two may have more in common than either may care to admit. you both come across as egotists. in your own ways, you both had valid points that in my opinion got subverted by your own tones of superiority and condecension.

KTW: your safety concerns are not without merit, but i think you have blown things way out of proportion from the start. it sounds as if wetmouse and the others were safe about their trip, and had no problems. who are you to decide who is qualified for various conditions? who is or is not a class v boater? who is "disrespectful to the river" and who is not? who is a good "example for the community" ect.when you talk down to people, how do you expect them to absorb your message (which i believe was well intended, if mis directed)? it's good of you to point out the dangers you did, but while accusing others as "arrogant", that's exactly how you came across. btw: TOO MANY CAPS!!!

WETMOUSE: your response was at least as inflamatory. sure ktw was incitefull, but you chose the "fight fire with fire" approach, and it seems as if that tact did not serve you well. two wrongs don't make a right. you have some valid points, but unfortunately they are lost in a dense cloud of words. btw: TOO MANY WORDS!!! you need to learn how to say what you want, then stop talking. (though this is a long post too).

sorry guys. just callin 'em how i see 'em!

PAUL: i wouldn't claim to be fluent in "wetmouse speak", but i think he's trying to point out the subjectivity of how we all percieve risk and danger with relationship to our own comfort zones, and that we shouldn't impose our own on each other in militant ways. in  other words, let people decide how they want to take and manage their own risks. i agree with wetmouse that dropping a 100 footer is more hazardous than the sky in low water, snowy conditions. let me ask you: when you ran the 100 footer, did you get hurt? did you break any gear? they could have on the sky, i suppose, but it may not be as probable. the probabilities of injury or mishap on large waterfalls seems to be far greater. having said that, hypothermia cannot be underestimated!!

SEPTIMUS: nicely put, brief counter to KTW's insinuations.

LEIF: seems lots of people are coming at this from the standpoint of posting a trip on a public forum, and the potential calamities that could ensue. that said, sounds like you know the people you were with, so i'm not sure what the big deal is. for the most part, only die hard  boaters would show up for such a trip anyway, not to try to evaluate anyone's skill with that observation. it does spark debate about the trip planner, and how it could be used, for better or worse. in your defense, its not as if you invited a bunch of newbies along. people are blowing this up with too many "what if's". saddly what's being crowded out of the discussion is how pretty it must have been on the river yesterday! i'd rather read about that! got any photos?

JAMES: you just FUNNY! laughter is the best way to bring people together. way to moderate man! btw: thanks for the historical reminder!

JEFF: Fibnok forgives your sins

this will be my only post here on this topic, so in closing let me say what is most important for me to say:

you are all creatures of one tribe. you are all unique and that is what makes you of value to each other. try to treat each other with more respect, and you'll each reap far greater rewards. all kayakers have things to share, to teach, and to learn! KTW and WETMOUSE ought to go paddle together sometime.

see you on the river! (when it's warmer!)


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see you in the funny papers


Posted By: Kiran
Date Posted: 21 Dec 2008 at 1:45pm
WOW!  And I thought I was going to miss the drama from "GCP" (Gold Country Paddlers) mailing lists in CA! :-)  This has been fun reading on a dreary snowy day where even skiing is out of the question purportedly high winds and avalanche conditions
 
Hi y'all:  I have run into a few people around rivers but have hardly got any time on the rivers here.  And the winter boating here is way too cold.  At least in the Sierra's I can dash to Sacramento and warm up!


Posted By: Kiran
Date Posted: 21 Dec 2008 at 1:54pm
Just another thought about "postings" from experiences on GCP.
 
I do hope people dont stop posting trips here.  Please!  It's always up the discretion of the group whether or not to paddle with someone.
 
At GCP, there would be lots of postings for Class II - Class V trips and then the Class V postings stopped.  Soon, the class IV trip postings, esp. the harder Class IV trip postings during "non ideal" conditions (wet, rainy, snowy, higher water) also stopped.
 
I was myself guilty on both counts and starting about 2-3 years ago completely stopped posting trips, just posted trip reports :-)  The drama took away from the joy of paddling and I knew a small circle of paddlers who I would paddle with.
 
Being told who to paddle with and who not take on a trip and when not to paddle got old.  None of this small group were "extreme paddlers", just conservative everyday Class IV - IV+ paddlers who occasionally dabbled in some easy Class V's but we were always outside someone else's comfort zone.
 
This made it hard for a newbie to "get in on the action" unless they happened to be at the right place and at the right time to hook up with the right people. 
 
Now I am in those shoes! :-) (But it's waaayyy too cold for me right now....)
 
Happy paddling and SYOTR


Posted By: PowWrangler
Date Posted: 21 Dec 2008 at 3:25pm
This lady should have joined the Sky trip.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=M0kogs4KEso - http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=M0kogs4KEso


Posted By: Wiggins
Date Posted: 21 Dec 2008 at 3:53pm
Originally posted by wetmouse

BTW, Paul, Snow Yakking in the Streets? Sounds unsafe. I don't think you should risk it. You might get hit by a Fed Ex truck or a tour bus that's headed for the retaining wall above I-5.
 
That is how he was planning on getting enough momentum to clear the boof over the freeway.
 
Kyle
 
(Who boated in a heated pool today!)


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I smell bacon



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