My vote is for a short boat class set at 9' and less, it takes almost no additional work to organize and makes for a more legit comp.  If prizes etc are an issue for creating an additional class, personally I would be stoked standing a chance to place, rather than getting some swag. 

 

It's like coming to a sword fight and some dude bringing an uzi.  There's no chance in hell aladdin is going to beat the terminator...well maybe but that's for a different thread.

 

Thanks for hearing this one out, either way I'll race but it would be cool to stand a chance to place.

 

SHORT BOAT CLASS! SHORT BOAT CLASS! SHORT BOAT CLASS! SHORT BOAT CLASS! SHORT BOAT CLASS! SHORT BOAT CLASS! SHORT BOAT CLASS! SHORT BOAT CLASS! SHORT BOAT CLASS! SHORT BOAT CLASS! SHORT BOAT CLASS! SHORT BOAT CLASS!

 

Paul

I'm down to help out w/ the race, it's pretty easy to make the two classes if help is needed for this to happen sign me up.

 

See you there, James + Co sounds like you're doing an awesome job on this one. 

 

Don't get my comments wrong more of constructive critisism then anything...that and I wanted to see if someone would argue Aladdin could destroy the terminator.  Personally I think if Aladdin was able to use the magic carpet and had the genie help out a bit he might be able to jump on the terminator's head and beat him that way.  However the weapons the terminator has are WAY better then anything Aladdin's got, well maybe the monkey...the monkey could cause some havoc on this whole thing.  Maybe Aladdin could swoop in with the magic carpet throw the monkey, who would be stretched out for maximum effect and grapple the T-1000 in the face.  Once distracted Aladdin could then come in hot with the carpet and push the terminator into some sort of nearby machinery which of course has melting molten lava around. 

It would be tough but it could happen...

 If you were a "real man" as you seem to be calling everyone else out nowadays for not being, you wouldn't have to pay 200 bucks for a long boat.  Race your shortboat Ben, let's see who takes it.  

 

Anyone who cares, practice laps are going down Sunday around noon. 

 

I'll buy a rack of beer for the fastest time that beats Hawthorne in their shortboat.

 

All in good fun.  See you Sunday.

 

 

boat length is not the sole determining factor of how competitive a racer is. It's not the size of the wand, it's the magic in it. Yeah, any boat over 12' would start to get an unfair advantage in the hands of a qualified paddler. But the other factors that are crucial ti win include physical conditioning, skill level, knowledge of the run, and knowing how to find the fastest currents in the river. Just that last variable (knowing where the fast water is) will curb the competitive edge of most participants.

 

So lets take these other variables out for a moment and play with their implications, shall we?

 

1) Boat length: Ben is right that a long boat can hinder as much as it helps in big, pushy whitewater. The boat's design is also a factor, i.e., low volume edgy boats will

somewhat succumb to turbulent reactionarys and bury into the subsurface. A boat that rides high (such as a creeker) will be able to stay on top and be less influnced by cross currents. Also, if you get a long boat but don't spend time in it, my guess is that it may be more of a setback due to unfamiliarity.

I can't afford to go get a SHORTER boat. so what do I do? Not race? I say let everyone participate in one class and see how everything shakes out. And if you're that concerned, get a faster boat. It's bad logic to think that in a DOWNRIVER RACE, you should have to paddle a SLOW boat (creeker).

 

2) Let's consider physical conditioning. Or even, natural BUILD. I'm a scrawny f**king runt, for example. So as soon as you start talking about how this or that is unfair, well, Maybe we shouldn't let The most ripped paddlers participate because they... You see where this bullshit is going? I'd argue that my 9' boat should be allowed to race because I'm a runt, but the bottom line is, even with the Diablo, I don't expect to win just because it's 9'. There's simply a lot of talented, strong paddlers who will probably blow my doors off despite the fact that my boat has an extra foot. So what.

 

3)Skill level: If you want to break it into classes, it should be based on SKILL LEVEL.

More advanced paddlers are more serious competitiors, generally. Skill is as big of a determining factor as any other. No offense, but most of you here in the west don't know much about down river racing. Back east, where the tradition runs deep, you don't hear these debates. In fact, all the serious competitors at the Upper Yough race, and the Gualley Race, all show up in WILDWATER BOATS. Now THAT is a truly unfair advantage, not and extra foot or two. But they are all more advanced anyway, so I think Skill level is a better way to class.

 

4)knowledge of the run. A racer who studies the run, and has an experienced eye for where the fast currents are, is really going to gain an edge. That is a HUGE part of downriver racing. I get the impression, that, these days with "Creekin" getting all the glamour, most contemporary paddlers simply don't even get this. Now, those of you who are out racing in these downriver races totally do. You start paying attention quick because your boat placement in ANY GIVEN spot, -down to the CUBIC INCH- significantly effects your time.

 

Anyway, I don't give a RAT's ASS what you all decide. But I WILL  race the Diablo. And I WILL get a timed run. I don't care how I finish. It's not the point. I AM curious to see, how I place against my friends. Just

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🐋🐋🐋🐋🐋🐋🐋🐋🐋🐋🐋

 

Long Boat

Men
1 . Andrew Holcombe 4:27
2. Pat Keller 4:28
3. Geoff Calhoun 4:31
4. Chris Gragtmans 4:34
4. Toby MacDermott 4:34

 

Short Boat

Men
1. Pat Keller 4:40
2. Andrew Holcombe 4:52
3. Geoff Calhoun 4:56
4. Jared Seiler 4:59
4. Drew Duval 4:59

 

 

1) Dave Garringer, paddling a Cyclone @ 37:30 (2006 Long Boat
Winner)
2) Charlie Center, paddling a Response @ 38:40 (previous two time
winner)
3) Greg Didriksen, paddling an Animas @ 38:45
4) Carlton Gould, paddling a Quantum @ 38:46
5) Rok Sribar, paddling a Pirouette @ 39:12

 

9) Eric Christopherson paddling a Magnum @ 40:37(fastest Short Boat
time)
10) Jason Holman, paddling a Dancer @ 41:16
11) Tim Hagan, paddling a Phat @ 41:26 (previous winner)
12) Nick Nyquest, paddling a Gus @ 42:57
13) Thomas Moore, paddling a Burn @ 44:14
14) Ben Zuepo, paddling a Pirouette @ 45:14

 

 

No doubt skill plays a huge part in racing, single most determining factor of how one will do in a downriver race.  However, bottom line is if two people are of equal skill sets the one in the longer boat will have an advantage.  This is shown time and time again by the same racers entering short and long boat classes and the long boat times always beating the short boat times.  The course is the same, racers are the same, all other gear is the same, yet the long boat wins.  This isn't a big deal but it's important to at least mention the crafts people were in to determine the actual "results" of a race. 

 

It's like getting 11th out of 50 people, 11th isn't bad but if it turns out the 10 people in front of you were all in long boats and you actually got 1st in the shortboats that's 1st out of 40 (if no longboats finished behind you)...if kayak racing actually mattered for anything this would be a huge discrepency in results.

 

To elaborate on the equation given:

 

A boat's theoretical top speed in knots (a knot is 1.15 mph) is roughly 1.34 times the square root of the LWL.  LWL is the "Length of the waterline".

 

Jackson Mega Rocker - 8'6

Habitat 80 - 8'4

Nomad 8.5 - ....8'5

LL Remix 79 - 9' 

Large Burn 8'4

 

Long boats:

Dagger Response 11'3

Prion Cyclone 10'6

Prion Tornado 11'5

Dagger Outburst 10'10

Dagger Vortex 10'7

Perception Wavehopper 13'2

Dagger Green Boat 11'8

LL Remix100 ~12'0

 

So for the most part it's not 6"-1', it's at least 1.5'-2' difference in boat length.

 

Examples: (clearly the LWL is slightly different for each boat but here's a rough estimation):

Habitat 80's MHS (max hull speed) =Sqrt(8.33)x 1.34x1.15=4.45mph

Mega Rocker=4.49mph

 

Dagger Response=SQRT11.25x1.34x1.15= 5.17mph

Dagger Vortex= 5.01mph

Wavehopper= 5.59mph

 

In a 20 minute race that gives the Mega Rocker a total distance of 1.48 miles (4.49mph*.33) while the response will be at 1.7 miles in 20 minutes.  That's almost a 1/4 mile gap in only a 20 minute race, this is using an example of the same racer on the same course where no other descrepencies exist other than boat length.

 

The Canyon Creek example is a perfect showing of how skill plays a huge role in time differences.  Only problem w/ that example in relation to a short vs long boat argument is that all the racers were limited to boats under 9'0.  So everyone was on the same field of play. 

The reason that example is different and doesn't really apply is because no one person had a leg up on anyone else other than pure skill.  On Icicle or any other race that does not distinquish from Short and Long boats those who are in longer boats even for a 20 minute race will be given a 1/4 mile "headstart" (Mega Rocker vs. Dagger Response figures) on the rest of the field over the length of the course.

 

It's not a huge deal and clearly kayak racing is about having fun, however to argue that long boats do not have an advantage over short boats is just plain silly.

 

Advanced vs Expert class distinctions are also a good idea however that brings up the next issue: What determines someone's skill leve

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27/320 & 1 bootie

 

And, yeah, I also admit that I was downplaying the obvious difference that boatlength plays in speed. But obviously 2' or 3' will undoubtedly make a difference. I did fieel it was important to mention the other variables involved.

 

My main concern was that, just as someone can't buy a long boat for a race, neither can I afford to buy a short boat for a race, not to mention how stupid I'd feel, considering it's a down river race. all of this shit is why I left the racing to my brother and just ran off with a River-Bong and hid in the canyons listening to the sound of moving water and running rivers.

 

Interesting to actually see the physics of kayak speed.  I'm not a math guy so to see someone work it all out is kinda neat.  I think we ought to get Wiggins to bring his radar gun and clock people on the river and going off the ramp!

 

(I'm sorry, was this about the race?)

 

PS, how many Balls do you hav under your belt, this will be my third.