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Another creekboat post

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Category: General
Forum Name: Whitewater Forum
Forum Discription: Open Discussion Forum. Whitewater related subjects only
URL: http://www.professorpaddle.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=12781
Printed Date: 18 Apr 2019 at 10:19am


Topic: Another creekboat post
Posted By: JayN
Subject: Another creekboat post
Date Posted: 31 Dec 2012 at 5:44pm
Seems like there is a high demand and kind of a low supply these days. I'm in the midst of selling my boats and in the market for a new creeker.

Context: I've owned an everest and a jefe. Loved the everest, hated the plastic. Hated the jefe, loved the plastic.

I'm looking for something that tracks better and has better primary stability than the jefe, but is more durable than a pyranha... I'm thinking villain, nomad, mamba creeker, stomper... something along those lines... probably exactly along those lines

I've scoured the FSBO/craigslist and inquired to no avail (It seems creekboat selling season was like two months ago). Anyways, if anyone has anything, or has any beta on used boat selection at any local shops I would greatly appreciate it.

Cheers,
J



Replies:
Posted By: WA-Boater
Date Posted: 31 Dec 2012 at 6:38pm
Can't help you out with anything to buy. However, I have some boats you could try out. Nomad, Mamba 8.1 and 8.6 creekers.
They all track well, the Mamba 8.6 is unbelievably stable (best primary stability of any boat I've been in except Jackson Dynamic Duo :), but big. I've spent the last 7-8 years in a Nomad and have been very satisfied with the boat. The last several months I've been in the big Mamba. It is great in big water, stays on top like nothing I've ever been in. I've struggled with the change from no edge to some edge a bit though. If you liked the Everest the Mamba could be a good choice.
I gotta say though, the best all around boat for creeking is the Nomad 8.5. It tracks great if you keep an active blade, is super forgiving and stable, fast and surfaces from little holes to waterfalls better than anything else out there. It doesn't have edge, which is a down side for people that have been accustomed to edge in the past. Try it - then decide.
I'd give Dagger's plastic a B (A+ being plastics from 10-12 years ago). It seems to hold up well when you piton - you might end up with a dent, but it usually comes out with some sunlight. Seems like the pyranha crack when that happens.
Sounds like we need to do a demo day. Maybe I'll haul out Nomad, Mamba 8.1, Mamba 8.6 and Greenboat to the Sky once we get some water.


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Posted By: mokelumnekid
Date Posted: 31 Dec 2012 at 9:01pm
Interesting McNasty- I have the 2010 Mamba 8.0 with the "creeker" (Nomad) outfitting and I love this boat. But the big change in 2012 was to the higher volume (and more shoulder weight) version the 8.1. Have you paddled both? Is the change from 8.0 to 8.1 with the ten gallon volume increase worth the extra weight? My point is that when my 8.0 is wet and loaded with gear a typical PNW portage over slimy rocks and deadfall can be a harrowing workout. Hard to imagine adding ten more pounds to that...is it worth it in your experience?

Agree on the mediocre Dagger plastic. Given how typically boney PNW runs can be I can feel the plastic getting worked and given my crappy technique we do a lot of bashing about.

Thanks for any input you can provide


Posted By: WA-Boater
Date Posted: 01 Jan 2013 at 8:34am
The new Mamba is definitely better. I have paddled both and the 8.1 is the same volume as the Nomad 85. It still paddles small which is nice. I didn't notice the extra weight - surprised to hear it's 10 lbs heavier. It actually feels light, since I'm usually hauling around a Nomad.
I don't think Dagger's plastic is mediocre. I'd say it's as good or better then most out there, except for Prijon. All plastic these days seem to be sub-par compared to what we had 10-12 years ago. I still have a CFS that was creeked hard for 3 years and used occasionally on low water since. If you do a lot of low water runs you should look for an old boat off craigslist - like the cfs, blunt or any prijon boat. They all have way better plastic and can snag um for 200 or so.
You are more then welcome to try out the Mamba 8.1 sometime. Then you can decide for yourself.
 


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Posted By: mokelumnekid
Date Posted: 01 Jan 2013 at 11:07am
Thanks, very interesting. I was probably exaggerating about the ten pounds  I see that in late 2012 Dagger has changed their outfitting system in both the creek and play models. More adjustment, more comfort apparently. They have added a leg lift adjustment to the creek model as well as a seat slider instead of the three hole choice. Yeah I'd like to try the 8.1 sometime, even if on flat water just to get a sense of speed and how it rolls, etc. People seem to be raving about it, esp in Europe (knowledgeable folks like Simon Westgarth).


Posted By: JayN
Date Posted: 01 Jan 2013 at 12:30pm
Darren,

Thanks for the info on the dagger boats!  A couple questions on the Mamba and Nomad...

I like to paddle bigger boats for my size (5'11" 155-60lbs), but at 160 I'm still 15 lbs under the min weight of the mamba 8.6.  Are those specs pretty accurate?  The villain and stomper 90 are fairly comparable length/volume wise and I land within (at the bottom) of those weight ranges.

What are your thoughts on the Nomad vs. the Jefe?  Is the hull a bit flatter on the Nomad? 

Thanks for the input and maybe when the flows come up I'll take you up on that demo day on the Sky!

Cheers,
J


Posted By: WA-Boater
Date Posted: 01 Jan 2013 at 2:35pm
Size is not an issue. Until recently everyone creeked in 10-12' boats. I started in an Overflow at 10' long when I was 5'8 and 135lbs. Creeked in it for years.
I'm still 5'8" but 160 now. The Nomad seems to work great at that weight. And the Mamba 8.6 works fine too. I prefer the 8.6 over the 8.1 even though I fall into the smaller range. I did find that it took a little extra work to get the Mamba 8.6 outfitted correctly. It was probably more of an issue due to height than weight though. I'm guessing that you would fit mine perfectly if we just moved the bulkhead forward a couple notches.
If you like bigger boats - you will love the Mamba 8.6. The Stomper 90 would be a good option to check out too.
Not sure on how the hulls compare Nomad vs Jefe. Maybe look up the pictures on eddyflower.com. The one thing I do know is the Nomad is not flat - it is full displacement. The Mamba front half is semi flat and stern is kinda flat to displacement. Good pictures of both at dagger.com I bet.
 


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Posted By: Jed Hawkes
Date Posted: 02 Jan 2013 at 12:20pm
In my opinion the Weight thing is pretty much guesswork on the manufacturers part. I've always been in the same position, I'm a tall skinny guy (some would say bean pole) and I've always been at or under the minimum weight range for all the boats I paddle. for a creek boat it doesn't make much difference, a boat that is big for you won't hurt, now if it's too small that is much more problematic. I currently paddle the Mamba 8.6, and at 89 gallons it's floats great. I've paddled the stomper 90 and that felt a bit small compared to the mamba, but they're very different hulls.

The only place a proper fitting boat makes a difference is in playboats. If your a compentent paddler it's nice to be in the middle of the weight range because you can throw them around a bit more.

Nomad>jefe, Jefe Grande>Jefe.

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The line will become apparent
978-273-7723


Posted By: Kyle K
Date Posted: 02 Jan 2013 at 6:29pm
I have a 2012 Mamba 8.6 and love it. I bought it because I wanted a creek worthy boat that I could instruct out of. I was using a Nomad 8.5 (a really good boat) but wanted something with more edge for demonstration purposes. Turns out I like the Mamba better than the Nomad for everything. I haven't dropped anything tall in it, nor will I likely do so. But that's because I'm getting pretty old to be subjecting my back to the force of a botched move off something tall, not because the boat isn't capable. I have run some good IV and V in it and it's a great ride: It's super stable, catches eddys easily, works very well in higher volume water and rolls easily. It can even be fun surfing the odd wave on your river/creek runs.

My specs are 5'11', 175-180 lbs and size 12 shoes. I don't have particularly long legs so added some roughly 1" thick foam inside the hull where my knees touch, bringing them a bit closer together.

I did find the boat very heavy though so I did some outfitting mods.
Drilled out the seat unit.
Drilled out the back pillar (didn't save much weight there but I did it anyway).
Got rid of the entire bulkhead system and made solid foam foot blocks.
It now is noticeably lighter when I'm carrying it and performs better. Do be aware that this likely voided my warranty, so pursue at your own risk.

Bottom line for me is that I've since sold my Nomad and I'm using the Mamba for everything other than play boating and ocean surfing. It's a great boat.

And Jed, I respectfully disagree about proper sizing for creek boats. Going up is usually OK but going down a size can lead to instability and unwanted submarining. That said, I've enjoyed all sizes of creek boats for various reasons, but size does matter in the end. Bigger boats float higher, which can be pretty advantageous in the swirly stuff.

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"I used to be somebody, now I'm somebody else." Bad Blake                  


Posted By: Fenix747
Date Posted: 02 Jan 2013 at 8:04pm
There is a used villain and nomad 8.5 at the kayak shed. Lets go get one next week and paddle something in Oregon. Looks like there is water there.


Posted By: Jed Hawkes
Date Posted: 03 Jan 2013 at 7:54am
Originally posted by Jed Hawkes

for a creek boat it doesn't make much difference, a boat that is big for you won't hurt, now if it's too small that is much more problematic.


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The line will become apparent
978-273-7723


Posted By: Kyle K
Date Posted: 03 Jan 2013 at 8:13am
@ Jed: I stand corrected. Guess I better review the entire post before I comment!

Hope you're doing well!

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"I used to be somebody, now I'm somebody else." Bad Blake                  


Posted By: WA-Boater
Date Posted: 14 Jan 2013 at 7:08pm
JayN-
If you still want to demo the boat -
1. call me and let me know - 253 549 tree9for5
2. come out to the sky this sat for the race ben's doing - i will bring the boat so you can try it

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