Close call on Tumwater
Printed From: ProfessorPaddle.com
Category: General
Forum Name: Whitewater Forum
Forum Discription: Open Discussion Forum. Whitewater related subjects only
URL: http://www.professorpaddle.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=10743
Printed Date: 24 Apr 2024 at 3:53pm
Topic: Close call on Tumwater
Posted By: Jule
Subject: Close call on Tumwater
Date Posted: 26 Apr 2011 at 4:42am
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This was on Tumwater on Saturday, 2300 cfs. While chasing my errant boat, a member of our party got sucked into a sieve on river right in the top third of the Wall. The boat was pointing straight downriver and stuck between two rocks, and his torso was out of the water so that he was able to quietly sit and wait for help. Wiggling around would have only destabilized the situation, there was no chance of self rescue. Fortunately, we were able to get there quickly and yank him out by his PFD shoulder straps (buckle it tight, kids) as the skirt imploded and the boat slowly inched downward. His head was never under water, and he was unhurt. We got the boat out after about 20 minutes of ropework. Everyone involved was incredibly calm, efficient, and competent. I know class V boaters get pretty nonchalant about this stuff, but I will be paddling class 3 for a while  . Or take up flyfishing.
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Replies:
Posted By: H2Ohta
Date Posted: 26 Apr 2011 at 7:54am
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Glad to hear that everyone is okay and that the team reacted well.
Please take this the right way but it seems that more and more people are taking Tumwater for granted. In the past few years, I have seen more Class III boaters coming over to run Tumwater for some reason. Tumwater is fun but only when you have the proper skills. IMHO, I think you should be comfortable running every line through rapids like Boulder Drop at different levels way before you come over to run Tumwater. Practice hard moves in easy water and do your best to not be a liability team, even if that means not putting on the river. That being said there are other stretches of the Tumwater that are less demanding and are good to practice moves for taking the next step. ------------- H2Ohta |
Posted By: H2Ohta
Date Posted: 26 Apr 2011 at 7:55am
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"and do your best to not be a liability to the team,..." ------------- H2Ohta |
Posted By: water wacko
Date Posted: 26 Apr 2011 at 8:05am
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Glad he got out safe and everyone is okay. Experiences like this are great for the de-brief after the run and will always make us wiser and hopefully a safer paddler! Talk about it and what he may have done to keep himself out of that spot. Not chasing the boat is always an option. In larger rapids I try to stay within 15 or 20 feet so I'm close, but can get away if it suddenly becomes pinned. I don't chase boats into big rapids I don't know or through routes I'm not familiar with (exceptions come with experience). I stick to the lines I know and if the boat doesn't come through the other side, I know where it is. It gets tricky and is very much an in-the-moment decision to act, but in general, if your in 'safety mode' chasing gear... paddle conservatively.
In rescue the number one person to keep safe is: 1. MYSELF 2. my team and/or bystanders 3. victim/gear If I'm the rescuer, I'm number one. That's one way I keep from becoming a victim and increasing the complexity of the rescue scene. Maybe I'm a newer paddler and the thought of getting in the water to stabilize the victim is terrifying. Listen to that. Assist from shore or something else you ARE comfortable with. When involved in a rescue, play conservative and don't go beyond your comfort levels. Swiftwater rescue classes are a great start, but practicing with the people you regularly paddle with is key. Practice practice. Thanks for putting this up, Jule. ------------- "Don't ask yourself what the world needs. Ask yourself what makes you come alive, and go do that, because what the world needs is people who have come alive." ~Howard Thurman |
Posted By: dave
Date Posted: 26 Apr 2011 at 8:44am
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Ya, Tum water is demanding. Even though I consider myself a solid kayaker, I turn down the Tum when I have any doubts about my confidence or strength levels on particular days. Especially when it is over 2,000... ------------- Nomad |
Posted By: Scott_H
Date Posted: 26 Apr 2011 at 9:06am
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Sounds like a pretty heads up move by the stuck boater to stay calm and not force it. If anyone from the party was inclined to post up a blow-by-blow account I am sure it would be of benefit.
Perhaps semi-related, Jay and I were heading down to take Wet Planet's one-day rescue clinic for paddlers on May 7th. I feel like a re-fresh was in order.
But the icing on the cake is the second day (Sunday), which is a creeking clinic, which we both took last year and thought it was great. The instructor (Andy Round last year) dissects the river, talks about how to approach different features, finding good lines, etc. Probably the best "safety" course I have taken. I think adding some formal paddling instruction over the last couple of year has been a real benefit to me - it has made the river seem less random and arbitrary.
------------- “The problem with people who have no vices is that generally you can be pretty sure they're going to have some pretty annoying virtues.” |
Posted By: Jed Hawkes
Date Posted: 26 Apr 2011 at 10:59am
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If you have the time Jule it would be great to do a full trip report and post it to the Tumwater page, getting a blow-by-blow account is always helpful. ------------- The line will become apparent 978-273-7723 |
Posted By: Jule
Date Posted: 26 Apr 2011 at 12:42pm
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Good comments, everyone. Learning to kayak is a lot about learning to override your gut instincts - and I think I have gotten a little too good at it. Way to reawaken your inner fears! It's very nebulous territory trying to decide how far you want to take your boating and how to go about it. I have always progressed the most when I push myself, but this may become less of a good idea as runs get more consequential. I may see you at the creeking clinic, Scott! I've been wanting to do that for a while. I will put up more details about the pin situation when I have time. |
Posted By: Jule
Date Posted: 27 Apr 2011 at 7:11am
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You want details, you get details. There were six people in our crew - three experienced class V boaters, two that are competent on class V but not as experienced, and me. I am comfortable on class IV, but definitely not ready for the big V. The only reason I put on that day is because I'd run Tumwater at 1900cfs before, and 2300 couldn't possibly be that much harder (ya think?). I was going to walk all the major rapids except for the Wall. Only one of us was familiar with the details of the run, so we were going to take our time and scout everything. There was also a big group of regulars that put on shortly after us and had just passed by us when stuff happened. It started with a little swim. After running the entrance to the Wall we briefly got out to look, and I was the second to last to get back on, not feeling emotionally ready to go but going anyway. There was a ledge where you run right, and cut left right after to avoid some rocks that the current pushes into. I didn't manage to avoid the rocks, flipped up against them, couldn't roll, pulled, and self-rescued very quickly into the eddy behind those rocks. I even had my boat, but decided to let go to give myself a better chance to make it to shore. At that point I had made up my mind to walk out, and was just hoping that people would not bother too much with my boat and keep themselves safe first and foremost. Then I looked up and saw the thing that nobody wants to see: the torso of a boater sitting stationary between two rocks. How did he get there? He had eddied out on riever right behind a big rock trying to catch my boat. I think they were going to try to at least clip a line to it. To get back into the main current from behind that rock, you had to peel out high from the eddy and work left to get back to the center tongue to avoid getting pushed into a sieved-out line of rocks on the right. Well, he didn't make it into the main current, and had a few split seconds to try and decide what to do with this crappy situation. He ended up picking an almost-wide-enough slot between two boulders, trying to keep his bow up and slide through. But his boat got stuck, in a pretty stable position with the bow pointing down just a little, such that only minimal current was pushing the boat under water. The rocks were about 20 feet from shore, and easy to reach by swimming through a 5-foot wide bit of current. The two most experienced guys got there first, and I shortly after. The first one to get there took charge of the situation and led the rescue. He told the victim to not move, as there was no chance of him getting out by himself. Any dislodging of the pin would have just allowed the current to grab the boat and push it under. He clipped a line to the front rescue loop of the victim's Green Jacket for good measure, and then they both yanked him out of his boat by his shoulder straps. This was not easy as the skirt had imploded by now, and water was filling the boat and making it hard for the victim to even move his legs against the force of the water. He was slowly inching downward with the boat, the most sickening thing I have ever seen. But his face was completely calm the whole time. And they managed to pull him out, as the boat went under. The victim took like 5 seconds to catch his breath, smiled, and then proceeded to assist with the boat recovery. I, on the other hand, was completely traumatized and refusing to get off that rock to swim through the little bit of current to get back to shore and help with the z-drag, even though I'm real good with ropes. I did not give a damn about the boat. I was done with kayaking, and just wanted to be with my kids. The boat came out with a z-drag set up to pull the stern upstream a few inches to allow the boat to wiggle free and be pulled out by the bow from the bottom of the sieve. We were surprised it worked, but a 3:1 advantage and four strong guys pulling did it. The whole thing took 20 minutes, enough for the onlookers by the side of the road to get bored and wander away. People have about 5 minutes when they're underwater. I finally was roped off the rock, and walked upstream with one other person who ferried me across the slackwater just downstream of the putin. The rest of the group proceeded downriver and we took out at the candy shop. My boat had been lovingly propped up by the side of the lake by other crew on the river that day. |
Posted By: chipmaney
Date Posted: 27 Apr 2011 at 8:44am
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Originally posted by Jule You want details, you get details. After running the entrance to the Wall we briefly got out to look, and I was the second to last to get back on, not feeling emotionally ready to go but going anyway. My worst accidents on the river are invariably associated with making the above choice. ------------- sitting all alone on a mountain by a river that has no end |
Posted By: WA-Boater
Date Posted: 27 Apr 2011 at 8:57am
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Curious if you guys were in playboats or creekboats? ------------- |
Posted By: irenen
Date Posted: 27 Apr 2011 at 10:58am
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Thanks for posting this Jule, I think it's really useful to hear about when stuff like this happens and I always learn from the comments that follow too. Very glad you and everyone else are OK! ------------- It's all fun and games until someone loses a paddle. |
Posted By: jella
Date Posted: 27 Apr 2011 at 11:57am
| I'm really glad everyone is okay. Thank goodness. |
Posted By: tiziak
Date Posted: 27 Apr 2011 at 12:03pm
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Jule, I'm glad you're ok. I wouldn't take up fly-fishing just yet. You were out there for a reason and maybe just stick to the basic skills for a bit and build that confidence back up. You'll be back out there an loving it in no time. I like this quote, I think it sums up boating and specifically creeking pretty well:
"The river doesn’t care. It is a force of nature, following the laws of physics and showing us continually that flowing water contains all the beauty and magic of the world. Learning to engage that magic is what creates our sport. Challenge and fun, as well as danger and death, all come from the same place. It is up to you to decide what that means, and to treat it with the care and respect it deserves." - Doug Ammons ------------- If you don't know where you are going, any road will get you there. Daniel Patrinellis 360.434.4616 |
Posted By: doggievacation
Date Posted: 27 Apr 2011 at 12:44pm
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Jule, Thanks for posting your story. I think it highlights one of the trickiest aspects of our sport: knowing when it’s time to safely move up a notch. It could be a brand new run or just a higher flow on a run you’ve done before, but in either case it’s often difficult to know (ahead of time) when you’re just about to take a nice, small baby step in difficulty or a big-ass leap. If it’s a run you’ve done before, you have your prior experiences to guide you. But if it’s a brand new run, then you’ve got to rely on your fellow boaters to help assess whether you’re ready or not. I figure if a better boater (than me) knows me and my abilities, and is familiar with the run we’re about to do, then it’s really their call. If they say, “Yes, I think you can run this,” then I assume they are willing to help rescue me if I screw up. If I get a thumb’s down, then it’s just going to have to wait for another day. Even though this sport seems to attract the arch-typical “rugged individualist”, it’s really a group sport in that we must depend on each other when sh*t happens. I completely appreciate how you feel about this incident. Your swim was no-big deal, but it put someone else at great risk and that’s a HUGE deal. ------------- Don't waste water! |
Posted By: doggievacation
Date Posted: 27 Apr 2011 at 1:53pm
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I was the only one in the thread above who used the word "better" and I can assure you that I meant better as in "more skilled" not "more valued." I think you make some excellent points in your post, and I agree with what you're saying. I just don't want to see my entire contribution to this discussion invalidated over the (mis)interpretation of one word. Thanks, John ------------- Don't waste water! |
Posted By: shirepaddler
Date Posted: 27 Apr 2011 at 2:30pm
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Jule,
I was with the group that passed through. Thanks for the update and we were all very relieved to hear that no one was injured!
The Wall at that level is a solid V and full of slots and holes best to be avoided. You guys did a great job of keeping a bad situation from getting worse!
Flyfishing is fun and all, but get back out in your boat on the river on beautiful sunny day and remember what it's all about.
Cheers
Kelly
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Posted By: jP
Date Posted: 27 Apr 2011 at 5:41pm
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Originally posted by slickhorn
Listen to Slickhorn: He is a wise river runner with many fluid miles under his belt!
... it's a recipe that gets people in over their heads fast. But I really wonder where these people who are so into "stepping it up" are after a decade. more likely, they are burned out or scared off and are now pursuing other hobbies. We've all seen plenty of people go through that progression. I just really want to say this: get back out there and do the kind of boating that puts a grin on your face and makes you want to call in sick to run the river again and again and again. The rest will sort itself out with time. css_styles/default_style.css - along with the "step it up" mind set is the nieve assumption that progression in the sport of whitewater is nothing but a sexxy looking j-curve where your skills just suddenly and miraculously sky rocket up up and away style like peeps was superman.
until they get hurt, scared, injured, or loose their bomb-diggity gear...
in my lifetime of experience with whitewater, yeah it has been an escalating series of J-curves that have formed my progression, and most humans desire to continue to improve at their endeavors- but for me the sport has had it's troughs, dips and setbacks.
I think people should focus on the sensual feeling of boating well rather than ever challenging goals. too many creekers are drawing the carriage before the horse. Better to boat gacefully on class III than sloppily on class IV. Being in over your head is bad form in and of itself. Technique is a good thing.
Here's an example where I'm at currently with my own paddling:
-why get scared on the Little White at a water level above my comfort zone when I can rock the Truss, and have a great time feeling the water move beneath my boat as I shred it up? Not looking to get scared every time I go creek. I spend at least 60% of my yearly paddling on stuff below my ability. It keeps me honed- then when opportunity knocks I am ready to shine on that stuff that is near my limits and maybe stresses me out more.
-why go "exploring" when i know there ain't nothin up those no-name/obscure creeks that can top the guidebook classics? (Sorry, man- you can't convince me Major Creek can offer me up better Goods than the Truss.-just an example- not tryin to dis my homey though he will take it that way) yeah exploring is cool, but more and more I just wanna paddle and enjoy it, man. Just because I'm out on the river doesn't mean I want an adventure.
-why get all tied up in the logistical knots of large groups? Over it. I don't want to be dragged through the learning curve of every new boater who shows up with shiny gear.
I see a ton of solo boating in my future and I'm stoked. It's different.
there are so many reasons to hit the water, and this forum is great for talking about it.
Thanks for sharing. 2300 is gettin fat n juicy up in there for sure,BTW.
Just go back to familiar waters and keep boating on your own terms.
Keep the Fun to Terror ratio mixed richly in favor of fun. ------------- 🐋🐋🐋🐋🐋🐋🐋🐋🐋🐋🐋 |
Posted By: water wacko
Date Posted: 27 Apr 2011 at 7:07pm
Secretly, I waited for JP's post.  ------------- "Don't ask yourself what the world needs. Ask yourself what makes you come alive, and go do that, because what the world needs is people who have come alive." ~Howard Thurman |
Posted By: up4air
Date Posted: 27 Apr 2011 at 8:44pm
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One of the best things I've heard out of Shelly B is, "I don't have to defy death every time I go boating."
------------- More water, please. |
Posted By: JayB
Date Posted: 27 Apr 2011 at 8:47pm
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Great posts Slickhorn and JP.
------------- -Jay |
Posted By: KBfree
Date Posted: 27 Apr 2011 at 9:06pm
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Jule, I was also in the group that went through the wall just before you and was releived to hear that everyone was safe.
In all fairness to the situation... the Wall (and all of the Tumwater section) was a step-up in difficulty at the 2350cfs on Sunday over the 1900-2000 levels, from my experience. This was the highest I've run this section to date and found there was not much room for recovery for getting off line. Chasing a boat or gear was pretty much impossible in the Wall and we pretty much paced the boat as it went down the class III towards the bottom. I think if there were a swimmer... every attempt would have been made for a rescue by everyone there.
A large part of this sport is knowing yourself and your abilites... the other is understanding the levels and how they effect the river. Experience is the best teacher and I think you are making the most out of learning from this situation. Thanks for revisiting this and letting us in on your learning experience.
Kirk ------------- Kirk B |
Posted By: water wacko
Date Posted: 27 Apr 2011 at 9:52pm
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Originally posted by KBfree
In all fairness to the situation... the Wall (and all of the Tumwater section)is a step-up in difficulty at the 2350cfs on Sunday over the 1900-2000 levels, from my experience. This was the highest I've run this section to date and found there was not much room for recovery for getting off line. Chasing a boat or gear was pretty much impossible in the Wall and we pretty much paced the boat as it went down the class III towards the bottom. I think if there were a swimmer... every attempt would have been made for a rescue by everyone there. A large part of this sport is knowing yourself and your abilites... the other is understanding the levels and how they effect the river. Well put, Kirk. In general, a point I would like to emphasize, class V rivers require a certain level of physical aptitude combined with the aquired skill of "dealing". Dealing, a lot of times, is just the ability to 'hang out' until you roll up. Mental patience assists greatly with this skill. It is a skill you can't practice for either. You earn it the old fashioned way. Mainly, I think, it's the ability to avert catastrophe in the nick of time to avoid dealing. I've also noticed a trend to 'step it up', like Rush Sturges likes to say. Eventually you step to the top. Hopefully it is your comfort level that stops the ascent and not physical ability. Take your time seasoning your skill and natural fire. Your natural ability and judgement will always be there to guide you. Pretty soon, you'll be an old growth standing tall and strong, not an Alder laying on the forest floor, broken because it grew too fast and could not support its new towering heights. Hell, I used to walk rapids if I thought there might be a chance I would FLIP. I wouldn't ask anyone to adopt that kind of crazy thinking. 
I'd also like to emphasize that it is much more enjoyable to watch someone stomping a class III line and making it look really good than a sketchy IV+ line or a V swim. Jule, I've seen you paddle. You're a charger, that's how you are. That's how you got to be paddling Tum at 1700 without issues. Like Kelly said, paddle the stuff that puts a grin on yer mug! ------------- "Don't ask yourself what the world needs. Ask yourself what makes you come alive, and go do that, because what the world needs is people who have come alive." ~Howard Thurman |
Posted By: Lynn Wang
Date Posted: 28 Apr 2011 at 10:05am
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Everyone's words expressing their personal-internal conversation re: boating progression is insightful and encouraging. As a class II-III boater I absorb what is said by the experienced and it is comforting to know all boaters-whatever skill level are processing this same internal debate. "but for me the sport has had it's troughs, dips and setbacks." JP Before my shoulder injury, watching IV, V+ boating youtube snippets was my off-time routine boating inspiration. At this time thinking about boating class III freaks me out and watching those clips aren't as motivating for me. However, watching a slalom boater glide through troughs and pivot on a dime on the Cedar last night, with clumps of snowflakes falling on us was inspiration that filled my heart. "The river doesn’t care. It is a force of nature, following the laws of physics and showing us continually that flowing water contains all the beauty and magic of the world. Learning to engage that magic is what creates our sport. Challenge and fun, as well as danger and death, all come from the same place. It is up to you to decide what that means, and to treat it with the care and respect it deserves." - Doug Ammons I just want to add this short bio on the "victim". 2 hours after the boater got pinned, he led a beginner trip down the Wenatchee, he play-boated the best he could with the small features available, had a genuine smile with a quietness to him that was a little unusual. He kept us safe, allowed us to play, didn't micromanage, bark or bite. Then he gave back again on Sunday. That is the magic of this world... |
Posted By: kbelenky
Date Posted: 28 Apr 2011 at 1:15pm
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I was almost part of that trip but had already made plans.
As you've now discovered, Tumwater is a peculiar beast. 1800cfs and 2300cfs might as well be different rivers. Here's my general advice that I give to everyone who's just had their first class V beatdown. In this case, the first half seems especially apropos. 1) A class V beatdown is communal. When you get your ass handed to you on class III, it's personal. You get beat down. You swim. You yard sale, and your buddies have a fun time trying to wrangle you and your gear to shore. Other than that, it doesn't really affect anyone but you. When you get a class V beatdown, it affects everyone. Wrangling gear is not mindless entertainment, it is a hazardous problem with tough choices and serious consequences. In a best case scenario you'll recover the swimmer and their gear within a couple of minutes but everyone's nerves will still be frazzled for the rest of the day, which may lead to problems later. In a worst case scenario there may be immediate secondary beatdowns, separated groups, or lost gear with no egress. That affects everyone. Now that you're in class V, the decisions you make affect your whole group. Almost more importantly, when you choose to paddle with a person, understand that you are taking responsibility for their decisions. 2) Practice makes perfect, but you don't want to get too perfect. Gracefully recovering from a beatdown is a learned skill, one that takes practice to get good at. Going too long between beatdowns can almost be counterproductive because you're less prepared for them when they do arrive. I'm not saying anyone should be grateful for a beatdown, just try to redirect it into an opportunity for personal improvement. Kennet |
Posted By: Wiggins
Date Posted: 28 Apr 2011 at 3:59pm
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It strikes me that a lot of people are harping on others moving up too fast as being the problem when there also seems to be little evidence that was the case here. Jule was on a run that she had done before, with a group of qualified paddlers to support her, a group agreement to scout, and a plan to walk the rapids she couldn't handle. She swam, it happens.
Dropping the blame on her for the other paddler getting stuck is complete and utter bullsh*t. The fact of the matter is that paddler broke one of the most basic safety rules by chasing a boat into a big rapid rather than looking where he was going. He took a situation that had stabilized itself and turned it on its head when he created a need for a second rescue.
We can talk about slalom boating, eddy hopping, and making hard lines on easy rapids all day long, but at some point you cannot progress without actually stepping up to a more difficult drop. One of the most common places we see this is with people wanting to get their first descent on boulder drop. They can prepare all they want, but eventually you have to just run it. Maybe it works out, and maybe it does not. It is just part of the sport.
Kyle ------------- I smell bacon |
Posted By: Jule
Date Posted: 28 Apr 2011 at 5:04pm
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You won't catch me there again either, not any time soon. But I do feel better about this whole boating thing, and I am amazed at our encouraging, cozy little community. This was a good catalyst to examine our reasons for boating the way we do, and I appreciate it if people speak their minds. For myself, I will step back for a while, work on paddling gracefully, staying upright and in control, getting out of holes, teaching beginners, building my independence. It's very easy to always attach yourself to better boaters who will take you places you'd never venture into on your own. But as I have learned, just because you can follow someone's line doesn't mean you can judge things for yourself. I recently led a group down the upper Green for the first time, and that step to independence was just as cool, scary and exhilarating as running something challenging for the first time. I don't blame myself for what happened on Tumwater, but I do know I set into motion a sequence of events, and without me being there everybody's day would have likely turned out different. Maybe the carnage would have been deferred until they got to Chaos. I have this magical attraction to deep green canyons with moss dripping, groveling through vertical dirt while dragging your boat, and the absolute trust we have to have in each other while doing this. Balancing this with my responsibilities as a mother and wife will always be tricky and in flux, but I just can't help myself. |
Posted By: water wacko
Date Posted: 28 Apr 2011 at 6:52pm
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Nor should you. The river is a magical place. ------------- "Don't ask yourself what the world needs. Ask yourself what makes you come alive, and go do that, because what the world needs is people who have come alive." ~Howard Thurman |
Posted By: dave
Date Posted: 28 Apr 2011 at 8:31pm
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Run the upper Green a bunch, and look for the hard lines...that river is a blast between 1300-1500 and of course higher levels. 1300-1500 is a good party level get stoned and hit all the fun lines... ------------- Nomad |
Posted By: FLUID
Date Posted: 28 Apr 2011 at 10:25pm
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We can talk about slalom boating, eddy hopping, and making hard lines on easy rapids all day long, but at some point you cannot progress without actually stepping up to a more difficult drop. One of the most common places we see this is with people wanting to get their first descent on boulder drop. They can prepare all they want, but eventually you have to just run it. Maybe it works out, and maybe it does not. It is just part of the sport.
Kyle
I totally disagree. The common theme I see as people step up is they have very little in the way of a good foundation and they think "stepping it up" will make them better. Wrong
 . kayaking is all fundamental and repetition is the mother of learning and muscle memory. you can't be thinking about good technique in tuff rapids you have to train that way all the time so when you do want to step it up you have the foundation to do it. people forget about paddling style and strokes along with efficient boat control. most folks take a beginner class and two years later there on class v bombing down the river but if you asked them what a dynamic c stroke was they couldn't tell you or show you how it works. work on skill... dynamic boofing, lateral momentom, pillow moves ect.. people think it's all about bombing down the river and if you get through still in your boat you are succeful. well if thats the case your not looking at the same river like I am. There's a lot of class v paddlers hacking there way down rivers and they eventually get good, get beat, quit or go back to class IV. It took me years to run hard class V and I thank all those years of teaching to me having a safe positive time now on class V. The other issue is I had good roll models that new me and didn't get me over my head to much. my skill was always bigger then my balls and I could have run gnarlier stuff earlier probably but I'm happy I didn't.... because now I have a blast on hard water do to years of conditioning.......
 Totten
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Posted By: Wiggins
Date Posted: 28 Apr 2011 at 11:04pm
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Totten,
I actually don't think we are too far apart on this issue. I agree that we have seen an epidemic of people moving into water they aren't prepared for without a decent foundation or skill set to fall back on. I think that runs like Tumwater, CC Stilly, and FITW are regularly being under estimated to the point that class III padlers are venturing out into these places. I just don't see a lot of evidence that is what happened with Jule.
It has taken me over six years to get to where I am at, and it will be a while still before I will be considering class V for the very reasons you listed.
The point I was trying to make was that you can do everything to prepare yourself (eddy hopping, slalom, etc.), surround yourself with the right people, and wait until you and your crew all think you are capable of handling it. If you ever actually want to accomplish what you set out to do you are still going to have to attempt it at some point, and even with all the preparation in the world it can still go wrong.
If a group takes on a newbie at any level, you have to expect that this type of thing will happen. I still see the root cause being the other paddler chasing gear in a major drop.
I definitely was not trying to say the proper way to progress is to go huck and hope, and let the chips fall where they may!
Kyle ------------- I smell bacon |
Posted By: FLUID
Date Posted: 28 Apr 2011 at 11:04pm
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The last thing is frequency, the folks I paddle with are getting out there three maybe four times a week if we can.not many people paddle that much. going back now and again to revisit your class IV-V skill set is hard to do and you need to put in some time. if your a now and again boater your stepping scale should be a lot slower. |
Posted By: FLUID
Date Posted: 28 Apr 2011 at 11:08pm
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Agreed... good chat.
If it was me I would have not let her get on the river knowing her skill... just saying.
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Posted By: FLUID
Date Posted: 28 Apr 2011 at 11:09pm
| I'll reword that , I would have strongly advised against it.. but it's still there call.. |
Posted By: Erik
Date Posted: 29 Apr 2011 at 12:41am
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OMG...take that dead horse out back and beat her to death...seriously just beat that horse to DEATH. Then turn that dead horse into glue.
This one time...at band camp...I shoved a Werner Paddle up my pussy. Just sayin'. Just like ANYTHING in life...if you're not absolutely sure you're gonna stomp whatever it is you're about to do...don't do it. The river does not care where you're at in your process. It will reward you for being ready, and will dish it out if you're not. It takes some people months, other people years...or never...to figure that out. A good rule of thumb is to not take any advice from an online forum...including any drunk postings @ 12:41 a.m. |
Posted By: FLUID
Date Posted: 29 Apr 2011 at 1:25am
| Agreed. I sometimes wonder myself why I post.. because of comments like that... |
Posted By: Erik
Date Posted: 29 Apr 2011 at 2:40am
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Originally posted by FLUID
I'll reword that , I would have strongly advised against it.. but it's still there call.. You spelled "their" wrong Totten. There was a day when talking sh*t on the internet was acceptable. It was a jab, sorry if it offended... |
Posted By: FLUID
Date Posted: 29 Apr 2011 at 3:55am
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WOW !! |
Posted By: Erik
Date Posted: 29 Apr 2011 at 6:44am
| Damn...you stayed up even later than I did. 3:55 a.m.? Ok...you win. |
Posted By: Ellingferd
Date Posted: 29 Apr 2011 at 8:00am
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I think the mental side of whitewater is something that goes completely ignored but, in some ways, is almost more important than having your skills totally dialed. Example: two boaters running, lets say, Boulder drop at 14,000. Boater 1 has off the charts skills but lacks the mental ability to keep their sh*t in a pile. Boater 2 has decent skills, but feels comfortable in boulder drop at 14,000. Who would I place my bet on to get through the rapid in their boat? Boater 2 because if Boater 1 freaks out, those skills are worthless. I have seen it happen plenty of times. Someone has the skills but lacks the mental ability to use them.
My suggestion for anyone looking to boat hard whitewater is to do the following: playboat the wenatchee at high water. Get into rodeo hole at 14,000 not once, but over and over again. Get beat down (and that thing WILL beat you down). Swim out of that thing. Have your skirt implode. Whatever. Then move downstream to trinity and actually get on the wave, a lot. You will experience all kinds of crazy sh*t that will test your skills and boat handling. Then move downstream to Snowblind and try and surf the stickiest and trashiest that rapid has to offer at high water. Do this consistently (i.e. all weekends when the water is that high) when there is water and you will be a way better boater than if you had just tried to "step it up" on class V a few times. You will build technique like you never thought because you HAVE TO if you wish to avoid a beating and also have fun. You will build mental strength because even though the risk factor in swimming out of Rodeo is only the inconvenience of picking up your sh*t, it FEELS like you are going to die when you are in that thing. Eventually you will learn to hang on, roll up, and continue to throw sick ass blunts after being in the washing machine. Basically, it will numb your senses. This will not work if you attempt to get on the wave once, decide it is too scary, and then move on to turkey shoot for the next five hours.
People underestimate the value of playboating big, intimidating features like this. The reality is learning to boat these features teaches you all the boat handling, edging, etc. you will ever need. This transfers to creeking, at least in my opinion, in a profound way. Once you have gotten a beat down in rodeo, hung on, and then continued to surf instead of swimming, you will be more likely to hold on when getting beat down in some class V rapid. You will also be able to keep it together for the rest of a class V run if you have a bad line because brushing off the post-beatdown jitters is also a part of playboating big features.
Just my two cents. Like Shardle says, dont take advice from anyone on the internets, particularly Shrdle.
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Posted By: huckin harms
Date Posted: 29 Apr 2011 at 9:25am
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good conversation...
Just a couple observations: Tumwater is deceptive. You look at it from the road and its all pretty straight forward, but its not until your on the water that you realize the power of the current and the obscure nature of the horizon lines. The Wall is long, and its easy to be lost if you haven't nailed down the lines. It comes right off the bat with no warm-up. I've witnessed a lot of carnage on that rapid. One time a party lost a boat, never seen again, which seems strange because it ends at the lake.
Good words on dialing in the skill set before running classV. I have often said 'no' to running a particular drop, or section of river, for whatever reason and have had to face the time of regret for not having tried. But I also realize that paddling isn't all about running class V; at least not for me. Many people will get into this sport for the fame and fantasy of being a sponsored athlete with all the fortune that goes with the industry, cough, cough... fleeting as it will be. Others chase the V because its an addiction.
What's really important to me about paddling is the relationship between 'me' and the h20. It's all that stuff JP talks about, and paddling class V doesn't make you 'better' than the next person who may not care to run the gnar but enjoys the scenic float. What is really important is having fun, eh.
But if you do desire the 'fear factor' and love feats of strength, trial by fire, and the human highlight show, then follow some of the aforementioned advice on hucking your meat into the rowdiest spots you can manage.
Paddling for most of us is all about getting away from the craziness of the world we live in, a stress relieving exercise, finding peace and flow in an arena few people are familiar with. Its a special privlege not to be taken for granted. An activity that should make us better persons having experienced the best nature has to offer. But make no mistake, as Shertzel said, the rio gives not a lick for us or our love for it. ------------- |
Posted By: jondufay
Date Posted: 29 Apr 2011 at 9:54am
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all this rig amoral over 3 rapids and a big lake....sheesh ------------- ahh, f--- it dude, lets go boating... |
Posted By: jondufay
Date Posted: 29 Apr 2011 at 10:00am
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rigamorale....sorry
------------- ahh, f--- it dude, lets go boating... |
Posted By: Ellingferd
Date Posted: 29 Apr 2011 at 10:12am
| Arent you a f**king teacher? |
Posted By: jondufay
Date Posted: 29 Apr 2011 at 10:14am
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I am. My kids are hard at work... ------------- ahh, f--- it dude, lets go boating... |
Posted By: irenen
Date Posted: 29 Apr 2011 at 11:18am
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OK, I've been kind of glued to this thread so am going to post before it gets totally sidetracked.
The reason I've been reading it is that it hits on something that I'm in the midst of figuring out right now, which is that bombing Class IV stuff for the last year and a half hasn't necessarily given me what I would call good Class IV skills, and it's definitely not the skill set that allows you to progress to Class V.
Not only that - and I think this is even more important - I realized this year that constantly pushing myself to run beefier water, often in small boats, was actually tilting the fear-to-fun ratio in the wrong direction, to where I wasn't as excited about going out on a run as I used to be. I was always happy to make it down the drop, but I think on some level that extent of fear - which mainly comes from feeling out of control (key point for this post) was leaving me kind of traumatized too.
(For the record, because I know someone will bring this up otherwise, I don't boat with a crowd that pushes you to do stuff you're not comfortable with - in my opinion they couldn't be better as far as being encouraging without making you feel bad if you decide to not do something. So the pushing yourself stuff is all me.)
The people on here (JP, Fluid) who say that it's better to style Class III than to boat sloppily on Class IV are totally right, in my opinion. I also understand that at some point you have to step it up and things get harder, but what they are saying is that when you do that you should already have developed a good skill set to carry you through it. And like Totten said, you develop those skills on easier water where you can maintain good form and repeat it (and repeat it) enough that you create muscle memory for the skills that allow you to boat in control on harder water.
In water where you're already pushed to your limits you learn how to 'deal', which is also valuable, but for the most part that's not where you learn how to do well the things that keep you in control. So I think both are part of the picture, but dialing in really good skills definitely comes first, and I do agree that it's a myth that that happens on harder water, for the most part.
The mental part is important too, but I think I'm living proof that a good attitude can only take you so far. Feeling out of control on the water will eventually erode your confidence, even if you do make it down the drops without swimming.
I'm in the process of retracing my steps, working really hard on drills on Class III stuff, and hopefully building up a skill base that will allow me to do Class IV differently than I've done it so far - in control, and more enjoyably. Which doesn't mean I won't still throw myself into Lunch Hole occasionally, but who are we kidding, that's the one place where it's totally expected that you will be 'boating out of control.' :)
Anyway, proof positive on the switch so far, I'm already having more fun. :)
P.S. Thanks to all who posted, I thought the comments on here (most of them anyway) were stellar. ------------- It's all fun and games until someone loses a paddle. |
Posted By: JayB
Date Posted: 29 Apr 2011 at 1:32pm
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I understand where Jon/Erik are coming from, but "thread creep" is what online forums are all about, and the conversation has veered quite a long ways away from Jule's initial post - and I appreciate all of the general thoughts on progression that people have shared here. I think that "go with the flow" is a good cliche to invoke when talking about paddling. The longer you stay involved in boating, the more likely it is that the things that you enjoy about it will change over time - often in ways that you might not have been able to anticipate.
I consider myself a reasonably solid class IV boater who steps it up occaisionally when the tangibles (CFS, run-character, etc) and intangibles (boating frequency, crew, confidence level, etc) feel right. When I was starting out - getting better meant making it through rapids without swimming. Then - after a terrible beating and what felt like a near drowning - it was getting a roll on both sides, with and without a paddle.
I think I had my most significant progression from 05-08. What happened then? I moved to the East Coast, where all of the decent climbing was a long way away and the mountains left me pretty uninspired, and the skiing was generally pretty lame as well - so I wound up doing much more boating. Then I met up with a loose confederation of folks that I just sort of clicked with and felt super comfortable following down new runs. Most of the harder stuff was low volume and technical, which I found that I prefer. And I was super-motivated to run everythig I could because I knew that I only had three years to boat the stuff and I'd likely never get to run it again. And...I saw some drops either in person or online that I saw dudes I boated with running that really inpired me, so I spent a year fired up to get myself to the level I'd need to be at to boat them in good style.
I wasn't even aware of half of this stuff when I was in the thick of it, but when I moved back to the PNW, then to NZ - things just felt different for a bunch of reasons and the main vibe I was feeling was "back off a bit and consolidate," which I did. My goals changed to savoring the old classics and finding new runs that were either super-beautiful or were challenging in the ways that I really dug (steepish, lower volume, and pool-droppy). I think If I'd fought against that vibe and tried to stay on the step-it-up path I was on when I was in a different place, in a different time - boating would have turned into something where the stress/fear/anxiety/doubt-to-fun/peace/beauty ratio was so skewed that I would have burned out.
Kind of a long way of saying "Go with the flow." When Emphasize the kind of boating that inspires you, when it inspires you and you'll probably be more stoked, *and* you may even find yourself progressing faster if you do, for reasons that you wouldn't have been able to predict... ------------- -Jay |