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Tobin
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  Quote Tobin Replybullet Topic: Seattle PD
    Posted: 15 Jun 2010 at 2:50pm
 
 
 
 
Does anyone else think that it hadn't been a girl the person would be face down with a cop's knee in the back your neck probably bleeding.
  What pisses me off a little is the SPD is taking heat over it.


Edited by Tobin - 15 Jun 2010 at 2:54pm
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  Quote NOMADIC WORLD Replybullet Posted: 15 Jun 2010 at 3:06pm
I agree with the cop. He had a group in real close quarters, a holstered weapon, and hands grabbing all over him, I'd be swinging to clear the space before I laid both of them on the ground and threw them in the car too. There is no room for stupid, and man or woman reaching around my gun will pay the price.
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  Quote James Replybullet Posted: 15 Jun 2010 at 3:35pm
Totally 100% Agree and Disagree.

First he should have knocked both of those ladies out and taken them both in.

Second he was totally wrong for wrestling that long with the lady. It shows his inability to take control of a situation. He needed to either cuff her or not... it looked like a pushing match on the playground. That officer deserves a serious talking too. Things get more out of control the longer they are allowed linger. Because of his lack of ability to assert that control by the end of the confrontation the lady had been over handled and there was a full crowd watching the wiggle match which should have been a simple slam bam arrest.
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  Quote Wiggins Replybullet Posted: 16 Jun 2010 at 12:58am
James is 100% right. When wristy twisty games don't work it is time to try something else. Escalate or back off until help arrives and then go for the "tactical" dogpile and make her a human pretzel.
 
As it stood he had no control and was set up for a ass whooping.
 
Up until a few months ago this was a text book case for a Taser application (before the second woman got involved). Now Tasers are on the same level of force as a baton.
 
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  Quote Courtney Replybullet Posted: 16 Jun 2010 at 8:48am
When I first saw this video I couldn't believe he hit her but then when I saw the entire video and put myself in the officer's shoes, now I think he was totally justified.  I would have felt very vunerable with two people grabbing at me and would have wondered if any of the bystanders would have jumped in too.  He really needed some back up.
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  Quote STLboater Replybullet Posted: 16 Jun 2010 at 9:17am
On a funny note, the girl being pushed around sure knew how to run her mouth.  I believe at one point she said something about "you weak ass mother f******" that was pretty funny.... And it is true, that officer had no control.
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  Quote Sisu Replybullet Posted: 16 Jun 2010 at 10:25am
Interesting comments, and not what I expected from paddlers, when the underlying crime is the horrific act of JAYWALKING.    My thought when I watched this was that given the location and the crowd and the fact that he was alone, why does the officer feel compelled to issue a citation for jaywalking to these folks?  Seems to me that he exercised very poor judgment.   Of course people are going to tell him to pound sand when he orders them to identify themselves so he can issue a citation -- depending on the circumstances, and if I thought the officer was being a jackass,  I might do the same thing.  I wouldn't resist like these young women did, but when I was 17 I might have.  Any maybe I am sexist, but I have a problem with punching 17 year old girls in the face.  I could see some exceptions to that rule, particularly in police work, but in my opinion this wasn't one of them.  The officer put himself (and by implication SPD) in a bad situation, got scared, and made a mistake.  How about maybe a stern warning to those evil jaywalkers next time, and save the butt whuppin for the crack dealers?
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Usually I agree with Wiggins' analysis, but a taser? Really?
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  Quote STLboater Replybullet Posted: 16 Jun 2010 at 10:33am
I didn't know the background of the story was jaywalking.  That sounds a little bit crazy, but judging how the girl was acting in the video, she probably did something to deserve being put down. 

I think the cop is lucky that he didn't get jumped when he punched that girl.  Or maybe everyone else in the crowd knew better than to get involved.
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  Quote James Replybullet Posted: 16 Jun 2010 at 11:01am
I think what were missing here is the story behind it, the article said the girl had a previous criminal history, so you never know what history this officer or shift had with her. What I disagree with is that the girl physically was grabbing at the officer before he punched her. That is fair game as far as I am concerned. He probably though she was grabbing his gun. Now it is his fault it ever got that far but still, nothing gives a citizen the right to grab a police officer in mid arrest.

Crap when I was getting my ass fined for towing the guy out of the ditch they threatened dave with interfering in an investigation just for walking up to the group of police going off on me.

When I was 17 I got arrested and while I was already cuffed laying on the ground face down I got several knees and kicks to the ribs because I was mouthing off. When my dad found out about the event and the officers that kicked me he told me that's what you get for disrespecting authority, even though I was not the one at fault.

I just to add some flame to this conversation have you driven on rainier down there, cause I have and very often youth will walk out in the road to cross and literally stop in the road yell at cars and basically strut their feathers making sure motorists know they can't do anything and that I in my teenage rage own this hood... I don't know what happened but I can tell you right now that chicks attitude was right there.

Nice post tobin this is fun!
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  Quote Erik Replybullet Posted: 16 Jun 2010 at 11:24am
Originally posted by James


just to add some flame to this conversation have you driven on rainier down there, cause I have and very often youth will walk out in the road to cross and literally stop in the road yell at cars and basically strut their feathers making sure motorists know they can't do anything and that I in my teenage rage own this hood... I don't know what happened but I can tell you right now that chicks attitude was right there.
Damn straight James.  I lived about a mile from where this incident occured for 6 years, and saw this jay-walking attitude almost every day.  It would piss me off, but I always gave them the benifit of the doubt, and thought that their need to control "their" streets was all they had.  People are quick to say "all this over jay-walking?".  Let me tell you, it's a chronic problem in that zone.  And I'm always one to err on the side of slight lawlessness.
 
Tough place for that cop to be at that moment, and I'm sure his life feels slightly different today...you know, with the media (including National) spinning it their way.
 
Once again, makes me glad I left that zone.
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  Quote Ellingferd Replybullet Posted: 16 Jun 2010 at 11:47am
The fact that it was jaywalking has nothing to do with it. If they had just stood there and gotten the ticket, nothing else would have happened. However they did not. Instead they chose to argue and begin touching the police officer in an aggressive way. That is considered assault, and that is what the officer responded to. Its not like he saw them crossing the street illegally and immediately punched her in the face. He was responding to assault, not jaywalking. Move past the jaywalking. No one cares about the jaywalking. Following that logic, if I get pulled over for texting while driving, I should be able to belligerently address and then assault the officer who pulled me over, and not be held accountable for it because he pulled me over for texting. Doesn't make any sense.

Bottom line is the women werent behaving appropriately, and the officers action was questionable, but nothing beyond that. Perhaps he could have done something else, but I think he showed great restraint given the possibility of the situation. The guy was totally alone, clearly nervous and unsure of what to do, and was surrounded by a hostile crowd. I have seen cops do much, much worse with less provocation and never be questioned about it.
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  Quote Travisimo Replybullet Posted: 16 Jun 2010 at 12:26pm

I'm surprised someone here thinks paddlers would always support people attacking police because the offense was small.   Jaywalking... speeding... failure to use turn signal.... doesn't matter.

The crime she got punched for was ASSAULT.  You DON'T hit or push an officer.

The person jaywalking doesn't get to choose what LAWS are enforced.

Cops get shot pulling people for having tail lights out, this was going bad quick.

James is also right.  The cop probably could have avoided it all by either backing off or being really assertive and cuffing her sooner.  I would be scared in that situation... he was WAY outnumbered and being ganged up on.

Police are not bullet proof, and if you watch at 1:32 it sure looks like one of the bystanders may have even been holding a gun.
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  Quote Sisu Replybullet Posted: 16 Jun 2010 at 12:36pm
[QUOTE=Ellingferd]The fact that it was jaywalking has nothing to do with it. If they had just stood there and gotten the ticket, nothing else would have happened. However they did not. Instead they chose to argue and begin touching the police officer in an aggressive way.
 
 
I'm not sure what to make of that. Jaywalking is a citation offense and the officer has pretty much full discretion as to how he handles it, so that would seem to have everything to do with it.  I respect police officers, but that doesn't mean that I feel I am somehow required to refrain from disagreeing or even arguing with an officer without the risk of arrest or a beating or both.  From what I can see, and what I have read, the officer initiated contact with the first woman, and her friend attempted to intervene.  If these are a couple of white girls in a wealthy neighborhood (also known to mouth off and disrespect authority on occasion) do they get the same treatment?
Or imagine a situation where your son or daughter or girlfriend gets stopped for jaywalking by a perhaps overly zealous officer and starts getting manhandled for allegedly being "disrespectful" and you are right there.  I'm sorry, but I am not going to stand there with my thumb up my ass respecting police authority if the officer is overreacting, which they sometimes do.  I am old enough to know better than to touch a cop, but I hope I would not be too afraid to at least try to hang in there despite the officer using his "command voice" to order me to step away, even if if meant taking a punch.
Police are public servants who we pay with our tax dollars to enforce the law equally for everyone. What is that slogan "To Serve and Protect" right?   Exercising good judgment is an essential function of their job. We should respect them, but they need to treat all of us with respect as well. 
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  Quote Travisimo Replybullet Posted: 16 Jun 2010 at 12:39pm

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  Quote James Replybullet Posted: 16 Jun 2010 at 12:57pm
There were white kids in that crowd. I don't think color has anything to do with it, and I think it is crazy that it is the first thing that everyone jumps on. If they were white kids... well guess what when white kids get the same treatment and they do, no one jumps on the well if they were richer white kids, or if they were blonde haired. I don't see this as much about color as much as location. I hate to say it but we all get to choose how to act and where to act/hang. If you want to thug around rainier or even hilltop, don't cry color when the police kick your ass. Because you can't stop someone in those neighborhoods and offer pleasantries while your sifting through a rap sheet and watching a crowd form around you. 
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  Quote Ellingferd Replybullet Posted: 16 Jun 2010 at 1:10pm
Again, as I said, the officer's actions were questionable, but understandable. Unfortunately there is no yay or nay for what he did. However, it is not acceptable under ANY circumstance to touch a police officer. The girls acted wrongly.

I am also not sure how he was being overzealous. Granted there is no context before the point the video is being taken, or the remainder of the incident so it isn't possible to be entirely sure what happened. However, it would seem he was attempting to arrest the girl in black, she resists and the girl in pink comes over and begins assaulting the officer. That assault is the action that warranted the response. Not jaywalking. Why he was trying to arrest the girl wearing black, I can only speculate, but I am sure it has something to do with resisting.

If I had a daughter and this happened to her, I would be angry, but my first question would be: "Why in the hell were you touching a police officer?"

In terms of respect, I would say he was far too respectful to the two girls. I have seen, in person, a man get full on tackled by two police officers because he just happened to look like someone they were looking for. The actual suspect had done something in the bar I was outside of, but this was the wrong guy. Once tackled, the guy's face was ground into the cement with a nightstick behind his neck. I could see blood begin to seep onto the concrete from some cuts on his face. The guy did nothing, did not resist, etc. THAT is police brutality plain and simple. No provocation, no threat. Just some dude standing in the wrong place looking similar to the wrong person. Dont get me wrong, I am not the biggest fan of the police, but I am also not the biggest fan of people acting stupid, which is what the girls did.

On the subject of race, it is pointless to bring it into this argument because it is only speculation. How do you know for sure two white girls wouldnt get the same treatment? If I were to speculate, I would imagine nothing violent would have happened if the girls in the video had only mouthed off to the officer. You are allowed to disagree with an officer verbally, but as soon as you get physical you have officially broken the law. Thats what the girls did, so they get whatever physical reaction the officer deems appropriate which, in this case, was on the lighter side of what I have experienced.
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  Quote Travisimo Replybullet Posted: 16 Jun 2010 at 1:20pm
Amen, I rented a garage and ran a shop one block off of Rainier (Chicago Street) for years.

I know the neighborhood VERY well, and the little girl that got shot in the drive-by was in the house across the street.  (it was actually a walk-by as my buddy witnessed the guy leaving)

That is a tough neighborhood, anybody that thinks they would not be worried as a cop there should walk from my shop along Rainier after 11pm sometime...  Actually don't do it, I'd rather hand paddle Robe in my playboat than take my chances there.

Race had nothing to do with this incident, the violence inherent in the area may have.
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  Quote Erik Replybullet Posted: 16 Jun 2010 at 2:07pm
Originally posted by Travisimo

Amen, I rented a garage and ran a shop one block off of Rainier (Chicago Street) for years.

I know the neighborhood VERY well, and the little girl that got shot in the drive-by was in the house across the street.  (it was actually a walk-by as my buddy witnessed the guy leaving)

That is a tough neighborhood, anybody that thinks they would not be worried as a cop there should walk from my shop along Rainier after 11pm sometime...  Actually don't do it, I'd rather hand paddle Robe in my playboat than take my chances there.

Race had nothing to do with this incident, the violence inherent in the area may have.
Spoken like someone who knows that zone.  There were two different times I could not get to my house after work because there were murders on my block and they had several square blocks shut down.  However, I will say that I (personally) never had the slightest issue with anyone, and I found most residents freindly / interesting.  I do miss the diversity, but once it was time to have kids, that was it...no more. I could literally sit on my porch and watch drug deals go down all day / every day, at the corner store. Let me know if you need an address
 
 
Also, I found daylight to be just as bad, if not worse than night time.  Used to take my dog out for walks late night, and thought things were eerily quiet compared to daytime.  Once we moved to Bellingham, we almost missed the sound of sirens, which we had (apparently) become accustomed  to.
 
Seems like the real issues in that area were between thugs vs thugs (with the occasional innocent bystander), and thugs vs police.  Police tended to not handle things well, but I always thought they had a tough road to patrol.  I'm sure police in the area are quite jaded from day to day interactions.
 
This whole discussion brings back lots of memories of crazy sh*t I saw in that zone.  The cost of housing is alluring for that area...but there's a reason.
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  Quote Sisu Replybullet Posted: 16 Jun 2010 at 4:05pm
Originally posted by Ellingferd

You are allowed to disagree with an officer verbally, but as soon as you get physical you have officially broken the law. Thats what the girls did, so they get whatever physical reaction the officer deems appropriate .
 
I'm with you up to this underlined point, which I'm pretty sure isn't the standard.  The use of force needs to be reasonable under the circumstances.  There is a whole spectrum of possible reactions here, and a police officer has the difficult job of choosing the correct response, but that is his job.  I think you would agree (or at least I hope so) that cracking her head with a baton would have been an objectively unreasonable use of force even if the officer, in his subjective view, thought is was appropriate.  I think this punch was unreasonable and you think it was appropriate, and that is fine. We are free to disagree, and I promise I will save you again this year if you swim on the MM.
 
My hypothetical involved an officer initiating contact with your son or daughter, and not vice versa, and wondering what you would do if the officer got a bit rough and it went like this:
 
Officer:  Sir, I ordered you to step back, did you just touch my arm?
Ellingferd:  Officer, I was simply asking you to stop twisting my daughter's arm and may have inadvertently brushed your sleeve on your massive forearm.  My daughter is a bit sassy but she is sorry she jaywalked.
Officer:  Sir, you have just admitted assaulting an officer and interfering with a lawful arrest.  That entitles you to one (1) free hickory shampoo, an application of Kel-Lite conditioner, both administered by me and followed by your arrest.
Ellingferd:  Thank you officer -- I deserve it.  Please go light with the Kel-Lite conditioner..
 
 
My point is that I don't think a good police officer would have either gotten himself into this situation or resolved it in this manner.  When you have the power, it needs to be exercised judiciously, not just because what you do may be "allowed."  I will end my comments on this topic with this question:  What message did the officer's actions send to the community?
 
 
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  Quote Ellingferd Replybullet Posted: 16 Jun 2010 at 4:26pm
I never said it was appropriate, I said the following: Again, as I said, the officer's actions were questionable, but understandable.

I only say his reaction was understandable due to the extremely stressful situation with which he was presented. I cant say what I would have done in his situation, but in speculation I probably would have called for back up and been more forceful in the arrest. I imagine if he had threatened pepper spray or a tazer, the girls would have backed off.

However, the guy was surrounded by an angry group of bystanders, and was then pushed by someone who was not directly involved with what he was doing. That is a bit disconcerting because if one person from the crowd steps in and pushes the officer, it would only take one or two more to do the same before you have a full on brawl with the cop in the middle getting the piss kicked out of him.

As to your scenario, the girl in the video did a little more than "inadvertently brush her sleeve on the cops massive forearm", she aggressively pushed the officer.

The better point is the one you made about a good officer not letting this situation come into existence in the first place. I am not sure how experienced the guy was in the first place and I would like to think he was a rookie, but probably not since he was alone. He certainly looked nervous, and I would be too.

Apparently the police guild has ruled he did nothing wrong, so this is more or less a moot point.
http://www.seattlepi.com/local/421842_cop16.html
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  Quote Wiggins Replybullet Posted: 16 Jun 2010 at 7:47pm
I doubt this was about jaywalking by the time the officer went hands on. Let's start with the girl the officer was trying to arrest. If a cop tells you to stop you are being detained (this is the initial phase of any traffic stop or other on viewed civil offense contact like jaywalking). Try to walk away and it is resisting arrest. If you refuse to identify yourself and provide contact information when you are stopped for a investigative purpose it is Fail to Obey or Obstructing (criminal arrest territory). Give false information and it is Making False or Misleading Statements (criminal) unless the information comes back to an actual person in which case it it felony ID Theft. The tape starts when the girl is resisting arrest her actions have already elevated this to the level of a criminal investigation.
 
The girl who was hit was actually being restrained from getting involved in the fray by members of the crowd both before and after she was punched. A case could be made on those grounds alone for Disorderly Conduct (criminal). Once she interfered with the officer trying to arrest the girl it was Obstructing a Public Servant  and Rendering Criminal Assistance for <insert offense or offenses from above here> (both criminal). Once she made physical contactby pushing the officer she has now committed Assault in the 3rd degree (felony level assault). Personally I would have not have charged Assault 3rd, but technically it fits.
 
Bottom line was this stopped being about jaywalking before the officer used force against the girl who was hit in the face.
 
Look at the video. His only effective target at the time was the face. At that time he was not in a position to safely apply lesser forms of force like OC spray or joint control tactics, but was in a position where he had to respond immediately to her actions. She just pushed him and was coming back at him once again while he was already struggling with another person.
 
As far as other options before things went totally sideways go they are pretty limited. The best option would be if he was familiar with the subjects he could have cited them by mail and avoided needing to restrain them. If he didn't know them and let them go without trying to detain them then he would potentially face disciplinary action for failure to respond. Backing off to wait for backup would be ideal, but it isn't always available and then you have to deal with a situation on your own. If it is beyond your ability to control the situation then it is time to back off. I don't think anyone would argue that he had control of the situation. If backup was around the corner then it is not unreasonable he would try to hang on to her until back up arrived. This may have been the case based on his order to the girl he hit directing her to not leave.
 
Based on what I have seen and read, I would say the use of force is justified, but the officer's lack of control of the situation (mainly because it appeared he was trying to avoid using more force) led to incident deteriorating. If he had used more force on the girl he was trying to arrest once she started resisting and his control tactics failed, such as OC spray or taking her to the ground to handcuff her, it is unlikely the situation would have gotten so out of hand, and he probably would not have had to hit the other girl.
 
Sisu, in your scenario above if the officer told you to step back and failed to do so while he was trying to affect an arrest then you are now subject to arrest for obstruction. If you were close enough to actually touch the officer, accidently or not, then you are way too close for the officer's safety. Having been in that situation a number of times I typically get the subject I am trying to arrest into custody and in my car as quickly as possible, then detain the parent in handcuffs so I can safely search the child for weapons and then put them back in the car. After I am done dealing with the kid I usually take the bracelets off the parent and we have a talk about why they needed to back off. Afterwards I typically I let the parent go with a warning. This tends to happen with adults as it is rare we can actually take kids into custody and away from their parents. There is the catch though. If I feel your touch was the start of an attack all bets are off. At the end of the day going home at the end of my shift is my only priority. It will happen one way or another. By ignoring my commands and then putting yourself in a position to make physical contact with me you have greatly increased the likelihood of having force be used on you.
 
As far as the question of whether wealthy white girls in nice neighborhoods would be treated this way I can only speak as to what I have seen in my own jurisdiction (which has 8 different agencies working in it as regualar law enforcement) and I can remember a lot of times where stuck up rich kids found out the hard way the mommy and daddy's wealth or position didn't buy them a free pass or special treatment. I have never seen anyone get out of trouble because they are rich, had connections, were white, or where they live (at least not until the jury gets involved).
 
Finally; Tasers have received a bad rap in the public eye. The reality is that they are a lot less force than OC spray or a wrestling match. Take a hit with a Taser and you are fully recovered immediately after the hit. The person just falls down and has two small, shallow puncture wounds. The OC spray will burn for hours, can scratch the cornia of your eyes, and makes breathing difficult. If you wrestle with someone you are likely going to fall down and get scraped up. The possibility is there for broken bones and dislocations.
 
After the Taser was adopted widely there was a decrease in suspect injuries and deaths suffered during and post arrest. I won't argue that there are cops who were too quick to use the Taser, but it was a great low impact tool for just this type of situation.
 
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  Quote SupaSta Replybullet Posted: 16 Jun 2010 at 11:24pm
According to the Seattle Times story, the first girl got the cop's attention by ignoring his request to come talk to him after being caught jaywalking.  It escalated from there.  She tried to walk away, he went and got her.  Then she tried to squirm away again, and he tried harder to keep her under control, and it just got more and more out of control.  These two girls just thought they were too cool to listen to the police.  They probably don't feel so cool now.
 
IMO, it doesn't really matter what happened before he got shoved by a bystander, his reaction to being shoved while making an arrest should be nothing short of getting the second person out of the picture.  He punched her in the face and she became a non-issue - good work mr. police officer!  Maybe he should have kept it from getting to that point, but that's moot.
 
I think the Chris Rock video is perfect.  Respect the police, don't be an idiot, and you won't get your ass kicked.  If you really, really think the police officer is wrong, then take it to court.  But again, that means you will have to be a calm, rational person and make your case without screaming and shoving anybody.
 
Just my $0.02
 
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  Quote Sisu Replybullet Posted: 17 Jun 2010 at 9:51am
Originally posted by Wiggins

I doubt this was about jaywalking by the time the officer went hands on.
 
I know I said I wasn't going to comment any more on this issue, but I feel compelled to address Kyle, who shared a lot of good insights from the perspective of, by all accounts, an excellent police officer.  The statement about this not being about jaywalking anymore is my point. Many of the posts here have made the point that this is a rough area which is true.  Most of the residents though, are good law abiding people, who probably wish there was a larger police presence in their neighborhood so they would be safer.  What the residents see, though, is drug dealing and gang intimidation and violence being perhaps a lower priority for the police than in other neighborhoods where it simply would not be tolerated.  If you live in that neighborhood in those circumstances, and an officer decides to come in and make some kind of a point by detaining people for jaywalking of all things, it seems like a bad joke.  The reaction of the guy filming this incident saying "you've got to be kidding me" over and over again sums it up pretty well.  It is a reaction not only to a police officer punching a 17 year old girl in the face, but also to the whole incident, precipated by the officer's need to assert his authority based on perhaps the most mundane violation of law that exists.
I think the race card is often used inappropriately and I am the first to say so when I think it is.  My reaction to viewing this video is that race was a factor here, but I am not inside the officer's head and I could be completely off base, as most posts here suggest.  In my first comment on this issue I expressed some suprise that a paddler's forum would be so supportive of the officer's actions  (or in my opinion, violent overreactions) in this incident, and was called to task for suggesting that paddlers would support people who assault police.  That wasn't what I meant, of course, but on further review, I can see that I had no basis to imply my own views to the folks in this forum.  I confess that in my life, which I have tried to live in a reasonably  law abiding fashion, I have , poached a "closed" creek or two, run a "closed" waterfall, surfed a wave on a "closed" flood stage river, occasionaly  ducked ropes at ski areas to ski out of bounds, rock climbed where I wasn't supposed to, trespassed on "closed" state land, drank beer in public places, failed to come to a full and complete stop at a stop sign when no one was around, and yes, even jaywalked. My off the cuff thought was that most paddlers would think that enforcing the jaywalking ordinance is a pretty low police priority and should never result in  an escalation to the use of force, but I was improperly stereotyping (just as I suggested the officer was doing) and I stand corrected.
Finally, here is a link to today's paper with a story on the issue.  At the end of the article, former Judge Michael Spearman notes:
 
"Certainly, when an officer observes a jaywalking or other minor infraction, there is some obligation to make an effort to either cite the offender or in some way encourage compliance with the law,"  "However, whether the use of force in this situation is a best practice is questionable."
 
 
Local News | Auditors have cited concerns with Seattle police jaywalking stops | Seattle Times Newspaper
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Travisimo
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  Quote Travisimo Replybullet Posted: 17 Jun 2010 at 11:37am
[/QUOTE]
  My reaction to viewing this video is that race was a factor here, but I am not inside the officer's head and I could be completely off base, as most posts here suggest. 

 [/QUOTE]


Wow I'm shocked again.  HOW???


The only person I heard calling anybody "ni*ga" was the person assaulting an officer of the law and trying to escape.  Listen to her language again, they cannot play it on normal media and then show me ANY action or word by the officer that shows he was considering race.


I am shocked SHOCKED and actually angered by people who think that just because a white cop arrests a black person it is because they are black that they are arrested.  It's because she was breaking SEVERAL laws.


I would expect worse to happen to me if I acted the same way.

H2O please
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  Quote Sisu Replybullet Posted: 17 Jun 2010 at 4:26pm

The fact someone happens to be a police officer and has the badge of authority and carries a weapon does not mean that he or she is right.  I do not condone these women's actions, but on the other hand, if the officer was being an ass, I have to admire their willingness to stand up him without fear.  Sounds like the consensus here is that regardless of whether the law, or enforcement of the law, is right or wrong, we are required to submit to it.  If we don't, we get arrested and/or a beating, and apparently we are afraid of that.  Those women weren't afraid just because it was a cop.  All they did was cross the street where they apparently weren't supposed to, and didn't believe that it warranted being detained by the police.  Everything that follows flows from that single offense. From what I have read, the women disrespect the officer by ignoring his order to identify themselves and take their citations, so he grabs one of them and it goes from there.  Me, I probably back down and take the citation like a good little boy because I make the calculation that it isn't worth it to me to stand up for myself on principle.  But I'm not sure that is the right thing to do.  I think we should never be afraid to question authority, or even to resist it, if we believe it is being incorrectly administered.

 

We cannot, by total reliance on law, escape the duty to judge right and wrong.... There are good laws and there are occasionally bad laws, and it conforms to the highest traditions of a free society to offer resistance to bad laws, and to disobey them.  ~Alexander Bickel

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