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Ben Baugh
Viener Schnitzel
Joined: 10 May 2009
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   Topic: Grand Canyon advice (also seeking gear)
Posted: 23 May 2010 at 6:27pm |
Hey folks,
Awesome weekend at the PP-ball yet again. Thanks for a killer weekend.
So I'm doing a Grand Canyon trip this summer and I'm seeking advice from those that have done multi-day trips (doing it with raft support).
Question numero primero: comfortable creeker, or playboat?
secondarius: freezing water, sizzling air temp. Do you expect to rock the dry top/bottom/suit in these conditions?
tertiarius: what is one small thing you would recommend bringing that would make kayaking life for 18 days more convenient (besides illicit materials I have on me at all times anyway)
Also, I'm looking for a used rescue vest, maybe some dry pants... 804.513.0707 if you want to get rid of somthing like that.
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kartch
Viener Schnitzel
Joined: 07 Sep 2009
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Posted: 23 May 2010 at 7:59pm |
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Never done the GC but learned to boat in Colorado before coming out here (warm weather and frigid water) and have run Westwater (Colorado River in Utah) that would be similar temps.
You will not need pants ( I would bring a pair for emergencies and stow them). You will probably not need a drytop--a long sleeve splash jacket or a neoprene gasket top will be most comfortable (again prepare for contingencies, but you probably won't need it). If it's anything like my desert boating experiences, you'll be trying to flip so you can cool off. I used my paddling pants twice before I moved here--I have yet to boat in Washington without them.
I would personally take the most comfortable boat you have but I think that boils down to your preference and how how long you can sit in your boat before seizing.
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matthewphoto
Paddler
Joined: 17 Jan 2010
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Posted: 23 May 2010 at 8:04pm |
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I took a really small playboat and had a great time. If you have raft support you can just throw your boat on the raft, kick back a couple beers, and then pop out again for the rapids.
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Kiwi
McNasty
Joined: 22 Jun 2007
Location: United States
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Posted: 23 May 2010 at 8:39pm |
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bring a fast boat that's not a creeker. a super ego or rpm. if you get tired of paddling (you will) you can lay around on the raft. I went last summer late july to mid august. temps were hot but imo perfect. you couldn't do any long hikes but on the river if you got too hot just jump off the raft and you'll be fine. for kayaking I wore a longsleeved nrs hydrosilk shirt with a shorty top. was perfect in the 115 degree heat. for bottoms I wore a pair of swim trunks. goodluck on your trip, if you have any old climbing ropes bring them and rap deer creek falls. there are bolted anchors in there. also, theres a 30 footer above the lip of the big one, we made it that far and then bailed.
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matta
Splat Wheeler
Joined: 21 Jan 2007
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Posted: 24 May 2010 at 8:29am |
1) Fast boat that ain't a creeker.
2) just a top.
3) Go to the oregon Kayaking sight and read his list of stuff to bring.
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NOMADIC WORLD
Paddler
Joined: 16 Jan 2008
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Posted: 24 May 2010 at 12:20pm |
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1) I took a Pyrana Inazone= comfort plus play
2.) Semi dry Top/ shorty for summer and some thin polypro leggings in case
3.) be ready to hike, the kayaking is almost a distant second place from the hikes you have in there.
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In The Business of Doing Things.
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Ben Baugh
Viener Schnitzel
Joined: 10 May 2009
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Posted: 24 May 2010 at 12:37pm |
Thanks for the advice, everyone
My personal boat options are a jackson all-star and a Pyranha 255 H2-Zone (Is this boat river runner enough, or too creeky?). I like the idea of playing in the all star and easily tossing it in the raft when I'm sick of it. But definatly could paddle longer in the pyranna.
And oh yeah: How much beer? Right now my figures are at least 6 per day plus at least a gallon of whiskey. I've been having a lot of problems with this issue.
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NOMADIC WORLD
Paddler
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Posted: 24 May 2010 at 12:47pm |
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Too creeky, you'll regret it. All Star will be a bitch to paddle, even if you chill on the raft a lot. But that said, I'd go for the all star
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In The Business of Doing Things.
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Wiggins
PP Junkie
Joined: 15 Aug 2005
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Posted: 24 May 2010 at 1:05pm |
I would go with the All Star if you can't borrow something better. I did it in December and the other two kayakers had a Pre 2007 Fun and a Airhead. They didn't have any issue running the river, but they weren't able to play as much as they hoped due to their slow hull speeds. I had a Dagger Axiom and it was perfect.
In December I was dealing with Washington's spring tempratures in the canyon. Going with a full drytop/pant combo in summer would likely be overkill.
Kyle
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I smell bacon
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Ben Baugh
Viener Schnitzel
Joined: 10 May 2009
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Posted: 24 May 2010 at 1:23pm |
Originally posted by matta1) Fast boat that ain't a creeker.
2) just a top.
3) Go to the oregon Kayaking sight and read his list of stuff to bring.
Just read through it, awesome resource.
I might look around and borrow a boat. I can see how somthing like the dagger axiom looks perfect for that type of river.
Somthing I'm also concerned about is my skill level going into my third summer of paddling. I've styled Boulder drop in the all star at 5500, but then the next weekend swam it in the Pyranna H2 at 3500. Is the canyon closer to the wenatchee at big flows, or tumwater at lower flows. Some of the holes look gargantuously huge.
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Wiggins
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Posted: 24 May 2010 at 2:18pm |
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If you are comfortable in class III big water then you should be fine. You can walk anything in the canyon with the exception of Sockdoleger (which is a easy, run the gut wave train).
Remember that the difficulty ratings are all skewed to accommodate gear laden rafts. Most of the lines for kayakers are all wide and easy to make. A bomb proof roll is helpful.
Kyle
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I smell bacon
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cmellon
Rock Bumper
Joined: 09 Jun 2008
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Posted: 24 May 2010 at 2:54pm |
If you're there in the middle of summer, heat management is key to comfort. It's easy to get cooked and often have no where to hide. Being in a kayak is nice, you can be covered up without overheating but sometimes it's hard to skip the party barge when the coctails are being mixed. I would strongly suggest a sarong which you can dip in the water and cover bare skin without overheating. We had one sunbrella per raft for the rower but next time would take two, the slightest shade makes life close to perfect - obviously folded for the few rapids. It's relatively easy in a kayak, the holes are big but the routes around the holes are even bigger.
Most importantly your beer count is low unless that's just pre-noon beers, otherwise I would increase your quantity. For 16 people on a 16 day trip we had around 90 cases of beer (8.5 per day) and about 30 bottles of liquor - I'd budget 9 per day, you can always leave some in the car at P.I. Careful with illicit materials at put in, the rangers don's mess around and there was an arrest the week before we were there. Granted someone turned them in but DEA showed up with dogs, handcuffs and folks went to jail. Also, make sure all pfd's are coast guard approved paddling vest, not an issue for most but non boaters may think their wave runnner pfd will work, they check the label on every one and they will deny that person from launching.
We also had a couple bongos and a guitar which sounded awesome especially in the narrow parts of the canyon and the Red Wall Cave.
I'm not a big hiker but it was the highlight for me and many on the trip.
Thunder to Surprise Valley (?) and out at Deer Creek (?) but requires some folks rowing the boats down while others thru hike. We would sometimes hit multiple short hikes in one day so it's good to have your hiking kit ready to go on the raft so you can jump out your kayak grab the gear and go.
Definitely not the creeker but something comfy that has a good spot to glue a beer coozy to and you're set. With something like 200 miles of flat water and maybe 30 whitewater I wouldn't get hung up on the kayak itself. I wouldn't go in there with expectations of awesome whitewater, more like a raft supported hiking/camping trip with some kayaking thrown in.
Enjoy, truly an amazing experience.
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James
Admin
Sum Dum Guy
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Posted: 24 May 2010 at 3:11pm |
Originally posted by cmellonMost importantly your beer count is low unless that's just pre-noon beers
Well if you are with Aaron you might need even more than that. He does like a half rack before noon... again he is awake every day at like 5am though.
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Wiggins
PP Junkie
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Posted: 24 May 2010 at 10:54pm |
On the subject of illicit substances. The ranger that did my group's inspection (I think his name was Dan) and I got into a discussion about bringing things that NPS does not like on the river. I was asking if I would have been booted off the trip if I had brought my sidearm (which is against park rules, but technically as a cop, I should be allowed to under the Bush concealed carry law). We started talking about the drug arrests in the canyon and this is what he told me:
When they suspect a group is carrying drugs they ask. If the group or a group member is honest and says yes they ask for the drugs to be turned over to them. If the drugs are given to the ranger then the ranger will probably arrest the person(s) with the drugs, but how he does that and what happens next is up to him.
If it is marijuana in personal use quantities Dan (I am sticking with that name) said that they are giving people citations and letting them and their group on the river. According to him the advantage to the citations on a federal level is that while it is techically an arrest, the feds do not give you any type of a criminal record unless you go to court. So if you plead guilty on the citation and pay the fine rather than requesting a hearing, there is no record of your arrest.
If you make them search for your dope or work for it, you go to jail, and your group's permit gets revoked (making you the most popular guy in the world!). If you go to jail you go to a court hearing, and therefore get a record.
So if you must bring drugs and they call you on it, don't make them work for it. Chances are you will still get on the river if you hand it over, and from the amount of resources they can bring in on their mutual aid agreements, they are almost certainly going to find it. Even if they don't find your dope, they will get a warrant that allows them to look into all compartments big enough to contain drugs. Once they do that your trip is screwed because they can cut open raft tubes to make sure there is nothing inside them making it impossible to launch. The kicker is with that warrant, they are under no obligation to fix or replace anything they damage.
Kyle
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I smell bacon
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Ben Baugh
Viener Schnitzel
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Posted: 25 May 2010 at 12:08pm |
Thanks for all the great info guys (and gals?)
Will indeed follow up with a trip report
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Kyle K
Splat Wheeler
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Posted: 25 May 2010 at 3:15pm |
I worked down there for years, if fact was an outfitter. Done a number of privates too, in every conceivable boat from kayaks to oar rigs (most of the time) to a motor raft on a research trip. Here's my advice. Of course it is my advice and you might like other's better.
Boat: You want to be comfy and have fun at the same time. A creek boat would be OK but you would be better served by a fast long boat capable of catching big green waves. A Dagger Axiom or Pyranha Z.One would be ideal in my opinion. If you can't swing a new boat, look for a used Necky Bliss or Jive or something similar. There a a number of posts out there about how much fun it is in a playboat but here's my two cents about that:
1. There are a gazillion times as many big fast waves to catch (with a longer boat) than there are quality play holes.
2. If you like throwing wave wheels a playboat would be good but, although I love throwing wavewheels, I would rather have the ability to do a lot of soul surfing than just the occasional playboating.
3. Comfort is king!
Paddling clothes: If you're talking June/July/August I would suggest the following:
1. A long sleeve dry top for the top half: The water comes out of the dam at less than 40 degrees, which is colder than a lot of rivers we paddle in the NW.
2. A shorty dry top for the lower half as the water warms up some as you move downstream and there are a lot of long mileage days on the lower section. A long sleeve rash guard can be a good idea with the shorty because of the intense sun with virutally no shade.
3. Instead of paddling pants I would take a pair of lightweight long underwear (poly or smart-wool) to wear under your shorts for the first part of the trip. They'll keep your legs warm enough in the boat and won't fill up with water like splash pants if you swim. When I was out of my boat I simply hitched them up to my knees.
Beer: Bring a lot! Days are long down there in the summer and the camping is awesome. Although I prefer darker/heavier beers, I save those for evening camp. During the day I prefer lighter beers such as PBR. It's hot down there and they are better thirst quenchers and tend to have less alcohol, leading to less headaches.
NOTE: Drink way more water than you think you need to. It's so dry in the Big Ditch that your sweat evaporates quickly and you don't realize how much water and salt you are losing. Drink as much water as you do beer and eat peanuts, etc.
Illicit substances: Common sense! the trip that got busted by the DEA (who were called in by the Park Service) were partying it up big time at Lee's Ferry (the put in) the night before the trip. There were other folks camped there that weren't so keen on the lifestyle these folks were showing off. They turned them in and it got ugly for everyone involved. USE DISCRETION! Just 'cause you're in the wilderness (or not even in the wilderness, such as at the put-in) doesn't mean you should flaunt your lifestyle choices. I assume you don't light up on the sidewalk downtown. Don't do it in front of other river trips either. Pretty simple.
All said, a Grand Canyon trip can be the best trip you'll ever have. I've been a lot of places on a lot of rivers (over 150 and counting) and it's still the best in my opinion. Have yourself a great time!
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"I used to be somebody, now I'm somebody else." Bad Blake
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Kyle K
Splat Wheeler
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Posted: 25 May 2010 at 4:01pm |
Clarification for above message: Regarding the long poly underwear instead of splash/paddling pants: "When I was out of my boat" meant walking around, not swimming. (Not I that I don't swim). Thin polypro is bearable for a while under your shorts when on the beach, even on a hot day. If you're too hot, you can get it wet and it will cool you off as it evaporates.
Also, concerning dry tops, while a latex neck gasket is not really necessary, a splash jacket won't do. That water is cold and the waves are big. Even if you don't roll you will be getting doused pretty regularly. The Stohlquist or IR style neoprene semi-dry neck gasket jackets would work well if they're more comfortable for you than latex.
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"I used to be somebody, now I'm somebody else." Bad Blake
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apexskier
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Posted: 25 May 2010 at 5:09pm |
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I've done it twice in a playboat and it works great. The squirlies and boils after the big rapids can be a little sketchy, but if you have a solid roll you'll be fine. I found a couple great surf waves, but most of the waves are to pulsey to stay on for any time.
I usually just had a short sleeve splash top on with a fleece underneath it. If it was cloudy I'd wear a dry top, but if you expect to swim you may want to put some more on.
Bring a small drybag to attach in between your legs. You'll want food, sunscreen, maybe a deck of cards, stuff like that. It's very nice to have something because you can't always get to a personal ammo can like the rafters can.
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LisaF
Super Looper
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Posted: 25 May 2010 at 9:05pm |
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I'm a girl, so maybe I get cold more easily - but on our late July trip I was perfect (for the first half) with a drytop and neoprene shorts. I had to roll about every ten minutes to keep cool, but the combo of the cold water, hot air and drytop worked for me. By the last couple of days, I was down to paddling in a swimsuit and PFD. As Kyle says, the water is much warmer down there (probably close to 50!)
There is SO much flat water that you'll want a boat with some speed. I used a Fly, but with the round hull all I could do was catch green waves (but I caught a LOT - that boat is super fast). I think I'd look at taking an RPM next time. I was able to catch surf waves on the Futalafu (in Chile) in that boat that the guides couldn't get in their big Remixes. Since I also became an ad-hoc safety boater on our Canyon trip (paddle raft in our group with no guide; canoe-er who'd been off the water for 10 years . . . long story) the fast boat was great to have.
Bummer about the illicit substances. I'm hoping it's only because of the flagrancy of the group that got caught - the Canyon isn't the canyon without a little ganja.
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okeefe
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Posted: 25 May 2010 at 9:57pm |
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Here's my trip advice:
http://riversandcreeks.blogspot.com/2008/03/packing-for-grand-canyon-trip.html
Kyle's advice is spot on regarding the boat and river clothing.
Don't forget the lip balm and hand cream.
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Thomas O'Keefe
PNW Stewardship Director
American Whitewater
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Ben Baugh
Viener Schnitzel
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Posted: 28 May 2010 at 6:09pm |
First off I'd like to thank everyone again for the great advice. This is a great boater community you all have going here.
I think I'm just going to take the all-star. Theres a lot of recommendations to take a faster boat but it looks like everyone that has taken a play boat had a great time. I've done most my paddling in it, I'm comfortable in it, its easy to toss around and throw on a raft, etc.
Nomadic World: I'm still interested in the inazone, my roomate who I'm going with needs a boat to take. Thanks for the call, you're the man for offering. Will return the favor however possible.
It's wild how many kayakers have turned out to have done the grand canyon. Getting a permit is tough, but it looks like if you're in the community, you'll inevitably have the opportunity from time to time, which is awesome.
Now if I can only figure out how much beer to take...
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