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becky36
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  Quote becky36 Replybullet Topic: A whole slew of newbie type questions
    Posted: 19 Sep 2009 at 2:43pm
As the title of the post says I have a whole bunch of newbie questions. My apologies if this is posted in the wrong area but I wasn't sure where else to put it. I also apologize if any of these questions are even too newbie'ish for this board, but I don't have anyone else to ask.

So here goes nothing/everything.

So ever since I got to watch a bunch of you folks at the professor paddle ball this past year, I've been doing nothing but reading books, watching videos and getting as much info as I can about kayaking. Plus I read this forum a lot and trying to make sense of it all.

So yesterday was my first day in a kayak (yes it was a sea kayak on lake union) but I LOVED it. It was so much fun and I was just so happy when the boats went by creating wakes. It made me more interested in learning all that I can about kayaking, not the sea kayaking however, as fun as it was, it was a bit..slow for me.

I also will be going out twice next week as well to try some more and I'm also signing up for the NWOC basic strokes class on october 3rd/10th. And hopefully get to try some pool sessions if I can figure out how to get there/back from ballard w/o a car.

Ok so there is all of that background stuff. I know I'm jumping the gun a bunch but I really did enjoy my time on the water yesterday. (now here come the questions)

When/how do/did you know if you want to get more serious in this sport?
If you went the lessons route and rented gear, when/how did you decide to buy your own gear? And how did you know what to buy?
Would you consider getting used gear from craigslist or etc?
If you could tell a girl newbie one thing about learning this sport what would it be?

I thought I had more questions than that. hmm. Well thanks in advance to anyone who replies.
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  Quote Kiwi Replybullet Posted: 19 Sep 2009 at 2:50pm
find a group of people who are willing to teach you how to boat, and borrow gear from them or just buy a boat off craigslist, you could probley get a pretty good setup for less than 500 bucks. then just stick with it!
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  Quote Meghan Replybullet Posted: 19 Sep 2009 at 3:12pm

To answer your question "when/how do/did you know if you want to get more serious in this sport".....with boating partners, go to the Powerhouse, kayak down the run, swim like we all did, get to shore, empty that boat and if you are then willing to get back in, well, you'll probably have your answer.

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  Quote James Replybullet Posted: 19 Sep 2009 at 3:18pm
I'll do a 1,2,3,4 response in order of your questions.

1. I knew as soon as I got off my first river trip (rafting) and one or two NWOC rentals with my parents. I went in the army and a few years later without any contacts or experience I dove in.

2 and 3. I bought used gear and I had no idea what too buy. Find some friends that know what they are doing to help you along. I would highly suggest buying used for your first boat / set of gear.

4. Find other girls to boat with. The sport is highly off balance gender wise. Try to ignore to super macho vibes and do everything you can to bombproof your roll and basic skills.

Have FUN is the best advice. As long as your having a good time everything else will fall into play. It is easy to let kayaking turn into a bad time, so take it at your own pace!
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  Quote Wiggins Replybullet Posted: 19 Sep 2009 at 3:37pm
I went the lessons route and rented my gear. I made the mistake of trying to skimp on gear as much as I could nd had a very bad experience when my boat flipped and I couldn't reach the grab loop on my sprayskirt because all the diving gear I was wearing. If you decide to take the class and rent gear then  go all the way and rent a drysuit as well. 
 
You will probably have a pretty good idea of whether or not you want to buy gear or borrow after any class you take, otherwise I would borrow gear until you start to get some confidence in class II water. I bought everything I needed new a week after I took the class. I made two mistakes in doing so. I could have paid a lot less for a used boat, and it was in October and I bought a wetsuit/drytop combo when I knew I wanted to boat through the winter. Get a used boat of whatever type you want, and if you plan on boating through the winter months get a drytop/drypant combo. The nice thing about this route is that it is not much more expensive than a drytop/wetsuit setup, but it will keep you warm when it is cold, and you can just use the drytop when the weather is hotter. If you are comfortable with buying used garments then I don't see any reason not to buy everything used.
 
The only thing I would tell a newbie is to have fun and move at your own pace. Don't worry about being a class III/IV/V paddler. This sport sucks for most people who push themselves too far too fast!
 
If you decide you want a playboat I have a Riot Inferno with a leak in it (it leaked for me, but my ex who weighs 150 pounds never had a problem with it), with float bags, and a spray skirt  I would be happy to part with for $200. I think I still have the surf fins for it as well if I dig a little.
 
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  Quote kbelenky Replybullet Posted: 19 Sep 2009 at 10:25pm
Unless you can find a regular boating buddy with a lot of gear to loan, buy your own gear fairly early on. Picking up rental gear from one of the widely scattered shops around Seattle is a huge barrier to spending a day on the river. If you have to rent gear, you'll have one more excuse not to boat. If you boat less frequently you learn slower. If you learn slower, you spend more time getting humbled. If you get humbled one too many times early on, you will stop boating. Own gear. Boat lots. Get good before you get discouraged.

Buy used gear. You will buy the wrong gear for you. That's ok, you probably bought it from someone who bought the wrong gear for them. You can probably turn around and sell it for almost as much as you paid. Consider it a rental. New gear is for people who know what they want. They know what they want because they've used a lot of bad gear.

If you plan on paddling in WA, that means you are going to be paddling when it is cold and miserable outside. Invest in a dry-top and dry-bib combo or a full drysuit. If you don't have those, you won't paddle often, you'll get humbled too often when you do paddle. You'll quit.

For the first year or two of kayaking, most of your obstacles will be in the less rational parts of your brain. Find someone who is good at talking you through your fear in a productive manner. If you find the river doesn't scare you, that's an asset for a while. If you start boating class V and it doesn't scare you, seek help.
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  Quote jP Replybullet Posted: 20 Sep 2009 at 10:00am
All helpful suggestions. And No, none of these questions are too newbie-ish. They're thoughtful. And- you can count on the people around here to help answer more questions later as you progress-- most importantly your gear elated questions when you start buying that stuff.

kbelenky is right on with his blunt statements. You'll need to fortify yourself against the tendency most newbies have to not get out on the water enough (such people often either quit or don't become very proficient).

I'm gonna go the James route and number the answers to your questions, too:

1. go ahead and take your class(es). use this as an opportunity to figure out how serious you are and gain info about what kind of boat you need. Early on (for the first season) focus on learning a SOLID ROLL and a STRONG FORWARD STROKE (you should never stop refining this discipline-it'll greatly enhance your enjoyment of the sport in any or all of its many facets). The rest will unfurl naturally.

2.You do want your own gear to facillitate LOTS of time on the water. The first season you should get out AT LEAST twice a month till the weather gets nice, then once a week  or more in the late spring summer. Your clothing as said above should be carefully considered: Either get a drysuit or a drytop/wetsuit como, and some polypro. A paddle is a paddle. If it has two blades, it'll do for now. Get a cheap paddle. You're gonna swim and have a few yard sales, and some of the people you paddle with may not be good at rescuing your gear. Paddles can get lost.

3. Criagslist can be a treasure trove, just do your homework before buying stuff to make sure its what you need/want. a good way to get a boat, though. Nwoc also has a bulletin board people sell stuff from. So does this site.

4. jP's advice for any woman getting introduced to this sport:
Definitely make an effort to connect with other women paddlers, because you'll naturally relate to them in countless ways, and they may articulate ways of doing things that guys won't. But once you get your basic skill sets down and start going out a lot, you want to paddle with people who are better with you, regardless of their gender, at least 50% of the time. WATCH THEM PADDLE. Be very observant and emulate the paddlers that have good form. Paddling whitewater has been besieged by lots of hype over the last 20 years. It's not about hype, it's about good form, grace, and style.
    WATCH OUT FOR THE FOLLOWING TYPES OF PEOPLE: 
Guys (mostly, but some girls, too) who are complacent about how they lead you down the river: You'll be dependent in the early phases on people to lead you down runs unfamiliar to you. Be sure they know the run accurately enough to guide you down it.
Some people will push you too hard if you let them (e.i. running stuff without scouting, or leaving you to scout alone while they run it. that's bad for numerous reasons), others will lead down the river fine until you or someone else swims-then you'll find out how poorly they are really paying attention to you (often resulting in long, cold days on the river collecting gear and trying to reunite a spread out group-always keep the entire group in sight of each other). Make sure the people leading you down are qualified, and truly invested in your safety and phsyclogical comfort.

This sport is a lot of fun, but it is a deep, serious kind of fun. It's bascily a lot like the martial arts in many ways.
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  Quote dave Replybullet Posted: 20 Sep 2009 at 10:10am
I tell this to a lot of people. Flat water practice is boring, but it will help you when you hit the river.

Practice on the lake, roll, brace, swim, ect...

Rent or borrow gear, because you don't want to invest in gear if you have a bad swim and get spooked and totally quit the sport later. You will have a bad swim, everyone does. It may take a while until you decide to stick with it or not. I have seen people kayak for a couple of years then just stop and never go again. I have seen people get injured and not be able to ever boat again. You never know. I am going on 20 years of kayaking and will probably never stop, unless my shoulders fall off.

This sport is 90% mind over matter and mastering your fears, I still have problems with that, it will always be a problem for me...
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  Quote kbelenky Replybullet Posted: 20 Sep 2009 at 10:40am
I'd like to add a couple of clarifying statements to what I said earlier.

New kayakers are in a race against time. The initial learning period of kayaking tends to suck when evaluated rationally. It's cold, wet, and scary. Fortunately, at the start you won't be evaluating kayaking rationally. You'll still be in the honeymoon high from doing a really cool new activity. However, that high doesn't last forever. You need to get good enough that kayaking doesn't suck before it wears off. Otherwise, one day you'll have a routine swim and say to yourself, "WTF... I'm going to spend my Saturdays at the mall instead."

Second, while I think newbies should buy used gear, I can't recommend anyone ever buy a used helmet. Helmet designs have improved greatly in the last 5 years or so. Helmets are consumable. Even non-catastrophic hits and scrapes will weaken a helmet. Helmets are perishable. Materials degrade over time. Tough shells become brittle, soft foam becomes hard. Helmets are the cheapest safety gear you'll buy. There's not much money to be saved in going used. If you're ok with the Volvo-like aesthetic, the WRSI helmets have the best brain protection per buck out there. Consider a full-face helmet. My face cage has saved my front teeth on at least two occasions.

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  Quote JayB Replybullet Posted: 20 Sep 2009 at 12:49pm
"Make sure the people leading you down are qualified, and truly invested in your safety and phsyclogical comfort."

+1

It's difficult to overstate how important this is. I think it's a wise strategy to follow anytime you're contemplating hitting a new river that's likely to be at or near the top end of your comfort zone, but it's critically important when you're starting out.

When you're a beginner, it's extremely difficult to properly asses the difficulty and danger of a particular river/rapid, and having an experienced, attentive, responsible mentor there to help guide your decisions can help you minimize the chances that you'll have a really, really awful experience on the river that will lead you to abandon the sport.


-Jay
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  Quote water wacko Replybullet Posted: 20 Sep 2009 at 6:12pm
Make sure you go with people who want it to be a good time. Don't have a time based agenda on how quickly YOU should be learning things. Always have fun. Then, either way, you're having fun...
"Don't ask yourself what the world needs. Ask yourself what makes you come alive, and go do that, because what the world needs is people who have come alive." ~Howard Thurman
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  Quote becky36 Replybullet Posted: 20 Sep 2009 at 6:55pm
Wow. Thanks to all of you for all the great suggestions.

you folks are awesome.
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  Quote rokmnky Replybullet Posted: 21 Sep 2009 at 8:42am
I'm working on teaching my girlfriend to boat so there are going to be some beginner trips this fall. I'll post up trips as we go if you want to come along. I'll have to insist on a maximun number of newbies based on how many experienced boaters I can con into coming. But it'll be fun all the same.
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  Quote dblanchard Replybullet Posted: 21 Sep 2009 at 11:26am
Very little to add to the excellent comments already given, but here are my two bits (actually I just finished this and it is a bit lengthy, sorry), not in the same order as your questions:


1. Be safe.

Never paddle a river by yourself. If you can't find anyone going, find flatwater and work on your skills. I know a lot of people on this board paddle solo, but they are at a place where they can make that choice. You (and I) are not yet there.

Gear is far easier to replace than health or life (can't be done reliably). When you swim, take care of yourself first and gear last. When you help others who are swimming, make sure they are safe before you worry about their gear.

As mentioned, only buy a new helmet, and make sure it is comfortable on your head, in the water. Seriously consider a full-face helmet, the cost of a dental visit is greater than the added cost of full helmet.

My recommendation is also WRSI:
http://www.wrsisafety.com/helmets.asp

The site says they are sold out of the face guard, but I'm sure it will be made available again soon:
http://www.wrsisafety.com/fps.asp


2. Be confident.

Be self-assured in your ability to roll, preferably on both sides. Be a "strong" swimmer, by which I mean, be comfortable with the thought that you may end up swimming the rapids in front of you, and the ones below them. If that makes you twinge a little, find a safe place to swim some rapids with some friends standing at the ready.

If any piece of gear makes you less than confident, replace it. If any paddling partner makes you less than confident, replace him or her. If any river makes you question what you're doing there, portage that spot, or head back to the road.


3. Learn.

As was said above, paddle with people who are stronger paddlers than yourself. Watch them with the intent of learning from them. Ask them about how they paddle and ask for feedback on how you appear to be paddling. As with any skill set, investing in good technique early on pays dividends forever.

Because you won't always be on the water, continue reading. PP anchors a remarkable community, but links in posts appear as regular text (for me, using Firefox), so make sure you aren't overlooking them. The best book I've found is "Whitewater Paddling: Strokes & Concepts" by Eric Jackson. Your library will likely have a copy. The most fun I've had reading about kayaking was from "Kayak: the animated manual of intermediate and advanced whitewater technique" by William Nealy.

The UW kayak club plays kayak polo on Lake Washington through the summer, but I'm not sure when they end. Whether you get to play this year or have to wait till next year, it really is a good work out, and you will greatly improve your balance/bracing/rolling skills. They will go easy on you until you ask them to treat you as an experienced player.

The regional pool sessions should be starting up soon. They are a great place to meet people, get tips, practice skills, and plan trips. Worth every penny, at least once in a while.

ArnoBarno has a great guide:
http://docs.google.com/Doc?id=dhbr7t9s_1hd527qgf


4. Take your time getting gear.

I absolutely agree with the advice above about having to pick up gear, from a friend or a shop, being a huge obstacle to paddling. But you are still in the honeymoon phase and for a while will be willing to face that. In case you are going to rent, find a place that will let you "demo" boats. This gives you a much reduced price on each rental, and when you buy a boat from that shop, they will credit your rental fees toward the purchase price. Also you get to try out a few different boats. If a shop doesn't know what you're talking about, explain it to them and ask if they would consider it.

If you are going to borrow, from a good friend, ask if you can keep the gear at your house so that you can go practice on the lake without troubling your friend.

Stick with the basic gear (PFD, helmet, boat, paddle, sprayskirt, floatbags) until you know what you need/want. I bought a 75' throw rope when I first started because I thought I needed one. As the freshest paddler, I wasn't a position to be saving people from my boat, and I wasn't running rivers that needed someones out of his/her boat as a downriver safety. I still carry that rope on some trips, but have also bought a more compact, more accessible throw rope that goes everywhere.

Before you buy any boat, demo it in moving water for more than ten minutes. If you have a sprayskirt already, make sure it fits the boat. If the boat comes with a skirt, make sure the tunnel (the part that seals around your body) fits you.


5. Make sure you are having fun. If you aren't, figure out how you're doing it wrong.

PM me anytime you want to run the Powerhouse on the Snoqualmie.
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  Quote jP Replybullet Posted: 22 Sep 2009 at 10:45pm
Originally posted by dave

Flat water practice is boring, but it will help you when you hit the river.
Practice on the lake, roll, brace, swim, ect...
You will have a bad swim, everyone does.
This sport is 90% mind over matter and mastering your fears, I still have problems with that, it will always be a problem for me...


Damn I never thought I'd agree with you, (Dangerous) Dave,  but I hafta admit he's right on here.

my last 2 pennies on this thread:

There is such a thing (whether acknowledged widely or not) as - for lack of an official term - "whitewater reality".  Everyone shapes their own through a combination of preconceived notions, experiences, and what other people say to them about the nature of it. Sound familiar? ---------yeah: it's called L-I-F-E.

In other words, it's largely what you make of it. And all you have to do is look at some of the exceptionary paddlers for an illustration of this.

As I said: It's a deep, serious kind of fun. So the more you put into it, the more you will get out of it. I'd like to emphasise what dblanchard said: "...investing in good technique early on pays dividends forever"

Have fun on your newly discovered fluid journey!!
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  Quote dylan Replybullet Posted: 24 Sep 2009 at 9:30am
Hang with these freaks. This really is a good community.
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  Quote windwaves Replybullet Posted: 24 Sep 2009 at 11:51pm
I started out my whitewater life with a "accelerated weekend" class (also moving from sea kayak).  There are several around, I can highly recommend Kani in Hood River (gorgepaddling.com).  He is a good instructor and a great.  2 days = roll class in the pool, paddling/edging in moving water, and a class II river with a nice "challenge the newbie" rapid at the end.

It got me hooked!

Also, Arn and Deborah (on here) put together a very good guide to getting started in the seattle area!

it's here:
http://docs.google.com/Doc?id=dhbr7t9s_1hd527qgf

Good luck and be safe!!!


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  Quote irenen Replybullet Posted: 25 Sep 2009 at 2:13pm
Tons of great advice on here - as you've probably figured out already, the paddling community is mostly made up of really, really nice people.
 
As someone who pretty much started out last year, here are my 2 cents:
 
JP and those guys are totally right about getting the roll down as soon as possible - this allows you to try all kinds of things that will cause you to flip (and eventually get better) without worrying as much about swimming.  Herbie at NWOC is excellent at troubleshooting the roll (he fixed mine) so if you're having trouble at the NWOC class make sure he personally helps you out.
 
They're also totally right about paddling with people who are better than you are.  Actually this was the topic of my last blog post at http://www.ireneskayakingblog.com :)  I wouldn't worry so much about if they're men or women, the guys you'll paddle with in this sport are pretty much about as nice as they could be, same goes for most of the women too.
 
Think about getting a drysuit so you don't have to take off the cold season - I got one in Dec. and have been on the rivers since Jan. 1, it's amazingly non-painful and you'll get better much faster.  http://www.kayakacademy.com lots of times has great deals on their close-out drysuits, I got mine there.
 
Anyway, you've got a ton of good advice here from great paddlers, hope to see you on the river!
 
 
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  Quote irenen Replybullet Posted: 25 Sep 2009 at 2:17pm
Oh, also meant to say, when I started out I found more Class 2, 2+ paddle trips on the WKC site, http://www.washingtonkayakclub.com, it is a great place to start out (and plenty of really good boaters on there too, they just do more beginner trips than some other groups.)
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  Quote bseracka Replybullet Posted: 25 Sep 2009 at 8:48pm
If you're a uw student or faculity member you're able to join the kayak club which gives you access to gear, pool, lessons and trips.  We also have more female ww kayakers than males.
 
We haven't done any polo in a while, but it could happen again.
 
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  Quote SupaSta Replybullet Posted: 25 Sep 2009 at 11:57pm
Originally posted by irened

Oh, also meant to say, when I started out I found more Class 2, 2+ paddle trips on the WKC site, http://www.washingtonkayakclub.com, it is a great place to start out (and plenty of really good boaters on there too, they just do more beginner trips than some other groups.)
 
The correct URL is www.washingtonkayakclub.org
 
It's a very supportive place to get started
 
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  Quote Liz Replybullet Posted: 29 Sep 2009 at 12:54pm
I'm late to this thread...  Becky, I think it's great that you're getting into kayaking.
 
My advice on getting started in the NW:
-Take OAC's roll class.  They only teach you how to roll, and teach it well (you can take it just about any time).  Keep going back to the class until you get it, then practice it all winter in whatever pool you can find.  Now is a great time to start--it will give you time to get your pool time in before spring
-Next, take WKC's beginner class in March.  It's only around $100 for 3 classroom days, 1 lake day and 3 river days, plus LOTS of instructors (most are volunteers).  This class will teach you the basics in a supportive and safe environment and allow you to get your roll from the pool to the river.
-Next, go paddle!  At that point you'll have the skills to safely and enjoyably join other groups.
 
Also, yeah, get a dry suit.  You'll swim a lot when you're starting out.
 
Have fun!
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  Quote Joyce Replybullet Posted: 01 Oct 2009 at 8:08am
Thanks Irene and Liz for plugging the WKC's beginner class! One thing that the club is absolutely committed to: stacking the calendar with LOTS (every weekend) of II/II+ runs right after the class in March. This will give you time to learn in a supportive atmosphere, plus meet kayakers in the same boat.

Most of us involved in the WKC, took the beginner class ourselves, in various decades, and try to make the entire process as fun and supportive as possible.

Whatever you do, get a drysuit :) Having learned to swim rivers, in a wetsuit and semi-dry top, in the middle of winter, the drysuit was more important to my happiness than the actual boat. The fact that I even continued after all that misery, is a testament to how awesome this sport truly is.

Also... the WKC trips tend to be skewed towards the female gender: usually we have 75%-95% women, with a few token dudes. I guess it's because we tend to actually plan things... ;)
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