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Confucius
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  Quote Confucius Replybullet Posted: 21 May 2009 at 10:11pm
Men of few words sometimes say many things.
Through words and deeds the superior man moves heaven and earth. Must one not, then, be cautious? "Confucius,500 BC"
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  Quote JayB Replybullet Posted: 21 May 2009 at 10:23pm
Hey All:

Thanks so much for all of the great info - especially James/Slickhorn - just the sort of thing that I felt like I had a pretty good handle on back East. So helpful to have something similar to use as a reference out here! Please continue to chime in with other options that fall somewhere on the continuum.

If you're leading a trip on anything that falls somewhere in the range of the first five rivers this spring/summer - maybe post if you're cool with leading people down or if you'd rather keep things fluid on the way down.

So stoked to be back in the PNW! Rivers/creeks - it's all good!

Dave - where's Granite Falls and what's the stuff that's out there?
-Jay
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  Quote Texas Dave Replybullet Posted: 22 May 2009 at 5:53am
The most popular stuff in Granite Falls is Canyon Creek Stilly and Robe Canyon on the Stilly.  I have no ambition to run Robe but if you want to run CC Stilly some time, I can lead that.  It's number 6 on James's list but personally, I think at low - medium flow, it's much easier than the Little Wenatchee.  I can't speak to most of the other because I haven't run them yet but they are on my list for this year.
 
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  Quote dave Replybullet Posted: 22 May 2009 at 7:08am
James is on my list... oh and the CC Stilly is on it too.
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  Quote JoesKayak Replybullet Posted: 22 May 2009 at 7:53am
Originally posted by huckin harms

Top Tye is not a river, nor Cooper, or Lil Chee.  If you want to argue it... then in name only, eh.


I agree... The point I was making is it's hard to judge a run as big/small by it's name as some 'creeks' are bigger than some 'rivers'. It also depends on how high up in a drainage you go. Tye River is pretty good sized stream at it's confluence with the Beckler where it becomes the SF Sky... but up in the upper reaches of the Top Tye, especially above Deception, it's pretty small.
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  Quote sherstcp Replybullet Posted: 22 May 2009 at 8:57am

great thread for someone like me who just moved here...

I've spoken to a few of you who have lived out east regarding what "creeks" closely resemble the difficulty of the UY in PA, but of course have forgotten.  Perhaps a reply here would make me remember :P  I absolutely LOVE the UY (wish it had some waterfalls) and want to paddle something of similar difficulty here...and it would also allow me to guage where I can start out here.
 
Thanks!
 
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  Quote arnobarno Replybullet Posted: 22 May 2009 at 9:09am
This is a great discussion - especially for someone interested in ideas on the easier end of the scale - like me.  I have no real interest in running IV+/V rapids - class IV is as much risk as I am willing to accept especially given my feeble skills.  The information on pool/drop and continuous is also very helpful.

It would be interesting to know if any of these creeks (especially some that I'd disqualify based on what I wrote above) would stay in the class IV category if there was a rapid or two that were the crux and the crux could be *EASILY* portaged.  So, for example, in the river world, most people start running the Sky and carry BD before running it.  In fact, many do that for their entire kayaking careers but they can be out on the river enjoying it with friends with more skills and/or more willingness to accept risk.
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  Quote James Replybullet Posted: 22 May 2009 at 9:42am
Great Point Arn... I think that alot of people miss that about certain runs.

Portagability makes great sense when your learning and increasing skills. Tumwater is a great example of that.  You can put in on that run as a Class III boater at certain water levels and have a blast, every major rapid is easily portaged. While not a creek at all, you can slowly chew off what you want to digest one bite at a time, and the in-between stuff is great learning material. The same is not true of the Cooper. There are ledges there that your just going to have to run, which is why I would also list it a bit higher on the learning curve.

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  Quote JoesKayak Replybullet Posted: 22 May 2009 at 9:44am
Originally posted by arnobarno

This is a great discussion - especially for someone interested in ideas on the easier end of the scale - like me.  I have no real interest in running IV+/V rapids - class IV is as much risk as I am willing to accept especially given my feeble skills.  The information on pool/drop and continuous is also very helpful.

It would be interesting to know if any of these creeks (especially some that I'd disqualify based on what I wrote above) would stay in the class IV category if there was a rapid or two that were the crux and the crux could be *EASILY* portaged.  So, for example, in the river world, most people start running the Sky and carry BD before running it.  In fact, many do that for their entire kayaking careers but they can be out on the river enjoying it with friends with more skills and/or more willingness to accept risk.


Class 4 creeking is one of my favorite types of boating. Here's my input on runs I know at least fairly well:

Peshastin Creek: Very busy, continuous but mostly class 3. A couple spots that are class 4. Fresh squeezed is a pretty stout class 4 IMO (I think some under-rate it) but it's easy enough to scout ahead of time.

Lower Icicle: (at low to med levels, I've done it at 3000-5000 on Wenatchee, and it's good at all those levels) Another continuous run, but most the drops aren't too difficult. Class 4 and under at these flows.... There is one hole in one of the first rapids where the creek splits around an island that can be an ass-kicker, but you can portage it. At higher levels you can run the other side of the island and miss it altogether.

Canyon Creek Stilly: This run is mostly class 3+/4 at lower levels. And you can portage pretty much anything except for one rapid (double drop) which is probably the funnest drop anyway and has a pool below it. There are 3 drops that rate 4+ IMO even at lower flows though... The first rapid, which you could portage, the double drop-already described, and the rapid below that, which you can portage partially or entirely...  This is a good example of a pool-drop high gradient run. drops are fairly close together, but have pools in between (at med and low flows). I recommend trying it out at 250-325 the first time. The gage isn't working right now, but on the SF Stilly gage that ususally correlates to around 4.8 to 5.2 feet.

EF Lewis Falls Run: Excellent pool-drop creeky run with class 3-4 rapids and two of the easiest waterfalls you'll find. Good levels to try out are around 700-1200 cfs.

Rapid River/Miller River: These are both continuous boulder garden types of creeks. Both are class 4 at lower levels (for the Rapid I just refer to laps on the lower mile, there's some harder stuff upstream). Lower levels on the Miller are usually around 4000-5000 on the Sky. Lower levels on the Rapid are around 6500-8000 on the sky during snowmelt, 8000-10,000 for rain event.

edit: another cool thing about the Rapid is the lower mile section is easy to do laps on with a bicycle shuttle and you can pretty much scout everything on the way up.

Out of all of these, for a pool-drop creeking run, I would say the EFL is the best for someone looking for not harder than 4 run.



Edited by JoesKayak - 22 May 2009 at 11:14am
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  Quote James Replybullet Posted: 22 May 2009 at 9:45am
One other run that should be on the learning curve list is N. Fork Nooksack (horseshoe bend)

Wonderful boofs in there and it is nice and short with easy access. Plus there is a great lower section to cool down on. That and ole man Dufay is the local so your bound to have some fun!!!
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  Quote jP Replybullet Posted: 22 May 2009 at 10:51am
Forgot the NF Nookie-- it's a great class IV. Short, but good quality, and if you push the levels up, or hit some auxilery lines along the run, you can start getting some simulated class V moves linked up in a few places.
 
Sorry Dave, If I'm too stupid for you, or anyone else who doesn't like my long posts. I can't help it I'm passionate about paddling. I figure as long as I'm not ripping on someone, as long as I'm sharing my passion for paddling, my posts can be as long as I want them to be. It's not my fault so many people have short attention spans. Such people should watch more TV instead.
 
It's under 3hrs to the Wenatchee from Seattle, if you go over Blewett Pass Via I-90. Soon you can hit FITWah on a Friday night on your way over. Not a bad deal.
 
People may be running Peshastin Creek this weekend, so JAY B, you should hit that up!!
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  Quote tradguy2 Replybullet Posted: 22 May 2009 at 10:57am

Jay B, you should join the Peshaston Creek trip at the PP Ball if you are in the area. 

... preparing for a river beating!     
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  Quote James Replybullet Posted: 22 May 2009 at 10:57am
Quite right... and don't forget to dingle the dangler... a smiling combo for sure aeh!
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  Quote jP Replybullet Posted: 22 May 2009 at 11:06am
James is refering to a little move we found on the NF Nooksack last year, but alas, the dastardly dangler is gone now. The move involved a text book pillow / s-turn sort of boof, beneath a dangling "Sword of Damocles" piece of wood. By our last lap that weekend the wood we had come to be so affectionately arfaid of was gone.
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  Quote arnobarno Replybullet Posted: 22 May 2009 at 11:08am
Great stuff and thanks, Joe, for your list.  I ran EFL earlier this year and thought it was super-fun - even though I had probably the worst line ever in Horseshoe Falls - at least I was in the middle slot! 

I'll probably be joining you Tom on Peshastin/Ingalls next weekend - looking forward to it!


Edited by arnobarno - 22 May 2009 at 11:08am
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  Quote JoesKayak Replybullet Posted: 22 May 2009 at 11:12am
Cool. I've been looking forward to getting back to Peshastin. The last time I ran it was with Dave Becker back when he was still kayaking and didn't even have a catboat yet.. so it's been quite a while.
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  Quote JayB Replybullet Posted: 25 May 2009 at 2:39pm
Originally posted by tradguy2

Jay B, you should join the Peshaston Creek trip at the PP Ball if you are in the area. 



Thanks for the invite - trying to free up the time, and should be able to get over there for at least Saturday afternoon onwards.

If it works out, I'm definitely in for the Peshastin Trip.



-Jay
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  Quote JayB Replybullet Posted: 25 May 2009 at 4:04pm
Some of my EC footy for calibration purposes. Thought that they illustrate the difference between high-gradient pool-drop stuff vs continous low-gradient stuff (per JP - thanks for the valuable input, BTW), and might be useful for anyone who may happen to randomly peruse this thread at some point:

(Mostly) High-Gradient Pool Drop:

(Maine Creeks)

http://vimeo.com/4834983


Low-Gradient Continuous:

(Fall-Creek, MA)

Helmet:

http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-5244840309835524923

Streamside:

http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=5934725236496576273

Guessing most of the top-end water in these vids would rate IV-IV+ in the NW? The hardest stuff in the vids was at or near the top end of the stuff that I'd be likely to hit here after I get established and figure out what's in the right range.

-Jay
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  Quote BRoss Replybullet Posted: 25 May 2009 at 9:44pm
Nice vids, definitely some fun looking stuff in there. Was that NTM in the Fall Creek video?
"That boated a lot better than it looked." "It always does until it doesn't."
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  Quote JoesKayak Replybullet Posted: 08 Jun 2009 at 2:36pm
Man, I had forgotten just how fun Peshastin is. Got back there last weekend. Nice medium flow (about 2.5 to 2.6 on the gage). Class 3+ rapids just go on and on. Definitely recommend jumping on this crik before the water runs out!
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  Quote LisaF Replybullet Posted: 09 Jun 2009 at 5:27pm
Lower Tye (AKA Blue Tarp run) is nice class III+/IV with a definite creek feeling. Don't forget to portage the huge tree in Mindbender (you can see it from the road)

Lower Foss + Lower Tye (where it comes into the Foss) is another of the same approximate difficulty, but the lower Foss is much more continuous than the first one I listed.

I like to do both these runs to warm up after a season of not creeking!
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  Quote Courtney Replybullet Posted: 09 Jun 2009 at 7:36pm
All of those MA video's from JayB are exactly the type of creeking Jimmy and I used to do back in the southeast.  Where are the creeks like that out here?  The low volume, steep and technical stuff?  Low volume being the main words here.
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  Quote Monk Replybullet Posted: 09 Jun 2009 at 8:08pm
Check out Clearwater Creek in the MF Nooksack Drainage.  She always excites.  Even sandstone bedrock for you mid atlantic types.

http://www.bellinghamwhitewater.org/2007/10/27/c-water/
http://www.americanwhitewater.org/content/River/detail/id/3583/
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  Quote jondufay Replybullet Posted: 09 Jun 2009 at 8:37pm

check out NF nooksack horseshoe bend.  great flows late into the summer and tons of great moves.  boating the bend regularly will make you a better boater.  best fish tacos in WA right at the take out at grahams. 

ahh, f--- it dude, lets go boating...
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  Quote dave Replybullet Posted: 09 Jun 2009 at 10:51pm
WOW, Hugo finally speaks using his real Alias!
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