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slickhorn
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  Quote slickhorn Replybullet Topic: "The cutting edge:" AW's essays
    Posted: 12 Feb 2009 at 2:56pm
Anyone seen the recent AW journal? 

PDF: http://americanwhitewater.org/content/Journal_get-journal-pdf_issue_1_year_2009_

Doug Ammons wrote a piece a few months back about the cutting edge of the sport -- what it is, who exemplifies it, how difficult it is to pin down.  That article has really sparked some controversy.  The current AW journal is essentially a collection of essays in response to that piece.  The essays come from young and old boaters, from Olympians, first descenteers, boat designers, expedition boaters, creekers, freestyle boaters, etc -- though it does seem to be heavily weighted to "kayakers" rather than "paddlesports" or even "whitewater boaters." 

Reading the collection of essays, which I think comprises the best AW Journal I've ever read, has engendered a few questions in my mind:

 - What is the cutting edge, and how does a boater know s/he is on it? 

 - Why is pursuing the cutting edge seen as so critical in being at the top of the sport?  For example, Lance Armstrong is an unrivaled success as a cyclist in the modern era, but he hasn't really pushed the envelope in how a cyclist races or trains.  But he isn't seen as less of a figure in the sport for that shortcoming, which seems different than the paddling world.

 - Media exposure -- why do trip reports/blogs/magazines focus on what is essentially a fringe aspect of the sport?  Is that focus good for the sport?  It's certainly exciting to us, who want to hear about things we might aspire to, or might never do ourselves.  But does it build the sport or the community?

 - Why do different aspects of the sport behave with so much animosity?  Rafters gripe about kayakers, kayakers gripe about rafters.  Everyone makes fun of canoeists ... some of it is just good natured joshing, but I think we've all seen those tensions boil over in some ugly situations at times.  Aren't we all united by the water we love and explore?

 - Ego.  This is a tough one, that I've certainly fought with myself.  Why is a tone of self-aggrandizement so dominant in this sport?  Everyone seems to talk about the spiritual aspect of boating, or the value of the personal experience right up to the point where they say (as I certainly have) "Look at this gnarly drop I just conquered!"  How do we reconcile those divergent tendencies?  Can you be on the cutting edge without that kind of arrogance?

 - What characterizes someone who is a paragon of the sport but maybe isn't a paragon of the "cutting edge?"

_____________________

What say you?



Edited by James - 12 Feb 2009 at 4:06pm
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  Quote SupaSta Replybullet Posted: 12 Feb 2009 at 9:30pm
I say you're giving me a headache!  

Seriously though, I just want to point out that the media's focus on the the extreme part  of our sport is not out of the ordinary,  For example, a basketball fan may never do anything more exciting than a Saturday afternoon pick-up game at the park, but you can bet he's going to watch the Final Four and catch NBA highlights on Sports Center.

We're no different.  Whatever skill level defines us, we're going to look to those at the extreme for entertainment and inspiration.

Dan
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  Quote water wacko Replybullet Posted: 13 Feb 2009 at 9:23am
I tend to break things down and so cutting edge for the 'sport' may be different than cutting edge for the 'technique' or 'gear' or some other aspect that compliments the sport as a whole. I would say one guy who is at the cutting edge of the sport (and has been for a few years) is our local boy, Rob Mckibbin. It isn't about the stuff he runs, although that adds to it. It isn't about his inflated ego and general 'asshole' attitude (totally kidding). It's not even about his sweet gear (kidding again). It's the unique combination (for me) of these different qualities and traits that offer a unique perspective on Rob as a person, a kayaker, and an aspect (in all of these areas) of the kayaking community. His choices, for the most part, are totally original and unique.
 
There are dozens of kayakers who make up this unique, exciting mix of 'cutting edge'. It's everything. Some are more of one and less of another, but generally the cutting edge always stand out and make us think to ourselves "That's damn sweet." 108' of vert is damn sweet.
 
I might even venture further by saying that everyone has there own idea on what and who is cutting edge. Boogy boarding the Sky at 15-20k 15 or 20 years ago (and even now) was cutting edge. There are lots of examples and that's what makes its definition elusive. You know it when you see it, and luckily, it's always changing. Great topic, thanks, slick.   ;)
"Don't ask yourself what the world needs. Ask yourself what makes you come alive, and go do that, because what the world needs is people who have come alive." ~Howard Thurman
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  Quote dragorossinw Replybullet Posted: 13 Feb 2009 at 9:36am
I think the focus on the 'extreme' side of the sport and industry is the reason participation has decreased nearly 80% in the last 4 years.  Folks who think about getting into the sport see the gnar side and not too much of the family fun side.
 
Competitions concentrate too hard on the class V races and beat down, big air comps that folks get turned off.
 
Lets see more of the JUST HAVE FUN SIDE - Pros: invite the newbies on some easy runs, just get WET!
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  Quote franzhorner Replybullet Posted: 13 Feb 2009 at 3:31pm
Great article...reminds me that I haven't renewed my membership with AW, but, even when I was a member I never got the magazine...

I just read Tao's book, Going Vertical, and he talks at length about this very issue.  Tao always impresses me and his book was no exception.  I think he has got bum rap from other boaters in the sport for "selling out" , "being cocky",  or out of touch.  When you know his whole story and find out what really makes him tick, it all makes sense.  I recommend his book for all paddlers.  It reminded me a lot of Ed Viesters story of getting sponsorship when no one else around is sponsored in an unforgiving sport....
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  Quote SupaSta Replybullet Posted: 13 Feb 2009 at 5:23pm
Originally posted by dragorossinw

....Pros: invite the newbies on some easy runs, just get WET!


Exactly! 

There was a "Paddle with the pros" event about 5 years ago on the Wenatchee.  Brooke Winger spent the day going downstream with a group of us, giving us pointers where appropriate, and generally just enjoying the river with us.  It was awesome and bringing it back would do exactly what you suggest.  It would bring the "extreme, class VII, death fang falls" image down to a fun day on the river and help the masses connect with the sport a little bit.  Think of pros signing autographs after baseball games or at training camp or even Fan Fest at Safeco field - it's all the same idea.

Some people may think, "Hey, I'm a hair boater, why do I care if more people aren't paddling?"  The fact is, it matters to all of us.  The more boaters we have, the more attention can be brought to access and conservation issues.  Also, more people buying boats means local shops can afford to stay open and kayak companies can afford to invest in R&D and come up with cooler, better boats next year - at better prices.

The fact that the sport isn't growing is bad for all of us. 

Dan
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  Quote JayB Replybullet Posted: 13 Feb 2009 at 9:47pm
Originally posted by dragorossinw

I think the focus on the 'extreme' side of the sport and industry is the reason participation has decreased nearly 80% in the last 4 years.  Folks who think about getting into the sport see the gnar side and not too much of the family fun side.
 
Competitions concentrate too hard on the class V races and beat down, big air comps that folks get turned off.
 
Lets see more of the JUST HAVE FUN SIDE - Pros: invite the newbies on some easy runs, just get WET!


Not questioning the validity of your stats - just wondering where the 80% figure comes from.

I've heard similar statistics (not 80%, but certainly numbers indicative of declining participation) concerning trailhead registrations, summit permits for Mt. Rainier, climbing desitinations. I've also heard a number of explanations for the declining participations rates thown around, ranging from the boomers getting older and less active, play-patterns in children shifting to indoor/sedentary activities - etc. Most have a ring of truth to them, and I suspect the reasons are complex and multi-faceted.

When it comes to declining participation in kayaking, I the 80% figure doesn't necessarily jive with my experience, but I know that $4+ a gallon gas confined quite a few people to local runs or kept them off of the water entirely last season (at least in the Northeast where quite a few folks have to drive a ways to reach dam-release runs), and I saw a lot of chatter on message-boards about how trying to balance the budget at home meant spending less money on gear.

I've also heard speculation that the arrival of internet forums and online gauges has  resulted in folks in small groups hitting rain-fed creeks and other more obscure runs whenever they're in condition, instead of converging in a single place for a big festival or dam release, which some folks believed was also leading to lower turnout at big events.

When it comes to increasing participation and/or keeping people in the game, it seems like clubs do a pretty good job with the stuff that requires formal organization and liability coverage. One thing that folks in Portland do that seems to get a lot of folks on the water are the Wednesday night runs on the III-IV section of the Clackamas when it stays light until late and theres plenty of water in the river. Seems like a great way to get folks out who may have other commitments like their kids' soccer league, etc on the weekends.

Not sure that this would have much of an impact in terms of recruitment or retention, but un-organized events where folks make a quickie slalom course through moderate rapids with milk-jugs, some twine, and some rocks (BD at low-ish) water seems like it would be a great candidate, informal races (Lozer Cup on the Deerfield is a great example - just show up at ~3:00 on a Saturday, someone blows a whistle, and it's on http://www.lozercup.com/), and other stuff like that can bring folks together in a way that doesn't require much more than folks converging at a particular place and time.

Also love the "go with a pro" idea and think that lots of other folks would too, so I hope that someone will pick up that ball and run with it.



-Jay
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  Quote JayB Replybullet Posted: 13 Feb 2009 at 10:01pm
Originally posted by slickhorn

Anyone seen the recent AW journal? 

PDF: http://americanwhitewater.org/content/Journal_get-journal-pdf_issue_1_year_2009_

Doug Ammons wrote a piece a few months back about the cutting edge of the sport -- what it is, who exemplifies it, how difficult it is to pin down.  That article has really sparked some controversy.  The current AW journal is essentially a collection of essays in response to that piece.  The essays come from young and old boaters, from Olympians, first descenteers, boat designers, expedition boaters, creekers, freestyle boaters, etc -- though it does seem to be heavily weighted to "kayakers" rather than "paddlesports" or even "whitewater boaters." 

Reading the collection of essays, which I think comprises the best AW Journal I've ever read, has engendered a few questions in my mind:

 - What is the cutting edge, and how does a boater know s/he is on it? 

 - Why is pursuing the cutting edge seen as so critical in being at the top of the sport?  For example, Lance Armstrong is an unrivaled success as a cyclist in the modern era, but he hasn't really pushed the envelope in how a cyclist races or trains.  But he isn't seen as less of a figure in the sport for that shortcoming, which seems different than the paddling world.

 - Media exposure -- why do trip reports/blogs/magazines focus on what is essentially a fringe aspect of the sport?  Is that focus good for the sport?  It's certainly exciting to us, who want to hear about things we might aspire to, or might never do ourselves.  But does it build the sport or the community?

 - Why do different aspects of the sport behave with so much animosity?  Rafters gripe about kayakers, kayakers gripe about rafters.  Everyone makes fun of canoeists ... some of it is just good natured joshing, but I think we've all seen those tensions boil over in some ugly situations at times.  Aren't we all united by the water we love and explore?

 - Ego.  This is a tough one, that I've certainly fought with myself.  Why is a tone of self-aggrandizement so dominant in this sport?  Everyone seems to talk about the spiritual aspect of boating, or the value of the personal experience right up to the point where they say (as I certainly have) "Look at this gnarly drop I just conquered!"  How do we reconcile those divergent tendencies?  Can you be on the cutting edge without that kind of arrogance?

 - What characterizes someone who is a paragon of the sport but maybe isn't a paragon of the "cutting edge?"

_____________________

What say you?



Great points and questions there, but I have to say (as an aside) that as far as "communities" go - kayaking has by far the best vibe of any sport that I've come across. I've never come across another community where people are so happy to help other members - often strangers - out in so many different ways, be it by whipping out of an eddy to chase down a swimmer and their gear, show someone new to the river the lines, divvy up a play wave amongst 10 or 20 paddlers and staying chill and relaxed, etc. I've encountered bits and pieces of that elsewhere, but the overall vibe has definitely been strongest amongst kayakers.

Not sure that addresses any of the points or questions, but worth giving ourselves a collective pat on the back for amidst some of the soul searching that goes on from time to time.
-Jay
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  Quote PaulGamache Replybullet Posted: 14 Feb 2009 at 12:27am
< ="Content-" content="text/; charset=utf-8">< name="ProgId" content="Word.">< name="Generator" content="Microsoft Word 10">< name="Originator" content="Microsoft Word 10"><> 1. What is Cutting Edge?:
Those who open or expose a different and/or further aspect of our sport.  Examples:
Jason Beakes and Team River Runner, Brad Ludden 1st Descents, Tom Okeefe & other AW members non-stop work, those who have created online communities to advance paddling resources, Daniel D and LVM, Tyler stomping Alexandria, Emily Jackson, Ruth Gordon, Troutman, and Yap killing it in freestyle, crazy flatwater 24 hr distance record holders, Kevin Harwick, Dave Johnston, and other awesome surfboaters, these are all examples of modern day "cutting edge".  In this sense I agree a lot w/ what Ammons is saying about there not being one clear edge.

I do however agree w/ Tyler that if the industry wants to sport to progress and grow there needs to be a way to fund such a progression.  Running big drops or hard whitewater isn't the means for doing so though.  I believe those who are putting together events, teaching, bringing different aspects of people together to paddle, being a good role model is what should be funded, not just hucking your meat.

1b. How do you know when you're there?
I have no idea.  I'm sure if you asked anyone I mentioned if they were cutting edge they would say no.  They just do what they do and have done and over time have gotten to a level only possible by such dedication.  It's like the frog in boiling water thing.

2. Why is it so critical?:
If no one was pushing, advancing, putting themselves out there then our perception of what's possible in all facets would become stagnant.  I disagree that Lance Armstrong wouldn't be considered cutting edge.  He redefined competition by simply destroying everyone else.  You can bet your a$$ everyone in the Tour trained that much harder knowing he was competing.  Thus he pushes others to excel.

3. Media Exposure?:
Extremes excite our imagination, they get your mind running, implode your idea of what's possible and makes you wonder "what if".  I strongly believe this is good for the sport.  Not the sport as a whole but it shows everyone what's possible.  Had I never seen Source, Dynasty, or New Reign I strongly doubt I would have ever imagined running anything over 30'.   While things like "Paddle w/ the Pros" most likely have a greater result for "advancing the sport" I do believe media attention on the upper limits help the sport...would you have seen or heard of 75% of the pros out there if you hadn't seen or heard of them running hard whitewater or mind-blowing freestyle?

4. Genre Animosity?:
Don't think this is an issue expect places like the SF American or other super crowded spots.  Those who stick to one genre should give the other aspects a shot.  Rafting is pretty fun, so is kayaking, catarafting, canoeing, etc.  Riverboarding is probably something I'll never try though..too dangerous for me.

5. Self-Aggrandizement?
Not going to lying, had to google this one: the act of making oneself more powerful, wealthy, etc., esp. in a ruthless way.
Only a very small majority of boaters I have met seem to posses such a negative trait.  I do not paddle w/ these individuals nor care to hear them tell me how I should paddle, what to paddle or why class III sucks. I think I know 3 people in all the paddlers I have ever met who fit this description to its fullest.
People are proud of their accomplishments, golfers brag about holes in 1, snowboarders are stoked on their latest 2410 flipkick whatever trick they just pulled, etc.  Anyone I would consider "cutting edge" is no where near possessing this trait, usually it's the groupies and wannabes that are worst about this.

6. Paragon?:
I have no idea.

There is something to be said though about being the first person to ever run a rapid or drop.  There's a lot of unknown associated and it takes a lot of effort to step outside that comfort level and focus on attaining something that has yet to be done. 

I think in everyone's paddling "career" they either continue progression, plateau, or simply stop.  So if someone enjoys running class II they get comfortable, want that same rush/challenge, so they progress to class III.  Some stop comfortable w/ this level others continue on.  IV then V comes.  A handful of the class V boaters venture on to harder water and find themselves doing things no one has ever done. 

To focus on waterfalls since they are the most visual and obvious of "cutting edge" (however in no way more important or noteworthy then all other aspects). People run a 10' then 20', 40', 60', 80',100'+ it's progression, pushing themselves, seeing what is physically and mentally possible.  Eventually somewhere in here they go from a group of 50% of total paddlers who are capable and competent to run a 10' to 30% of paddlers who would run a 20' then 15% of paddlers who would run a 40', then 10% who would run a 60' to 5% who would drop an 80' to <1% who would do 100'+.  The percentages are just made up but think you can get what I'm getting after.  For each individual their personal cutting edge comes by taking that next step forward and testing their skills and seeing what's possible.  Eventually the "cutting edge" is staring them in the face simply because they have progressed to such a point to even consider it or be capable of seeing it.

Running Hell Hole (Class III sliding 6' drop in a ~5' vert) on the Trinity 7 years ago was just as exciting as running Mini-Curtain (25') on Hell's Kitchen 4 years ago, which was just as exciting as running Zume Flume (15' into a 30'?) on Crystal Gorge 2 years ago, which was just as exciting as running Skoonichuck (40' into a 15') on Eagle Creek last year, which was just as exciting as running Mamquam and Final.

The major difference mentally was deciding to drop Cascade.  No one had ever run it, the height was equal to that of the current height "record" but it was only 20' taller than final, which in the scheme of things really isn't all that much.  However pulling the trigger on that one was far and away one of the most difficult things I've ever had to wrap my mind around. 

The point is, staying inside the bubble of possibilities is way easier than going where no one before you ever has.  Running the biggest volume whitewater, inventing new freestyle, busting your butt creating new ways to preserve, conserve, and restore waterways, seeing a need and benefit for assisting the disabled, etc. is much more difficult then simply following someone down a drop, doing the same run and nothing else, etc.

I do believe that drops anywhere from 130'-150' are currently possible though given the right falls.

Finding new and exciting ways to get people amped about paddling is definitely cutting edge as well.


If it weren't for our sport's history of "cutting edge" individuals there's no way large groups of paddlers would be routing the Little White on a regular basis as they do today or 10 year olds doing mcnasty donkey flip whatever you call its.

On a side note. You don't have to be a "pro" to organize a progression day on the river.  Just plan a trip on a section of river you are comfortable leading, invite newbies, and get after it.  Unless people start doing this no one really has any right to dog or bag on more experienced boaters who want to spend the day paddling challenging whitewater then volunteer for the day teaching people. There are a hell of a lot more Class III / IV boaters than there are the 50-60 "pros" out there.  I have never seen a post on this board besides Tristan advertising beginner boaters to come out for a progression day on the river.  It may have happened and if you have seen it great but I think we can all agree it really doesn't happen very often.

These are just some of my ramblings, hope some of that made sense.  In no way do I consider myself cutting edge or a pro.  Please do not interpret anything I've written to mean otherwise.

....ya that's a long post. 
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  Quote dragorossinw Replybullet Posted: 14 Feb 2009 at 8:59am
[[/QUOTE]
Not questioning the validity of your stats - just wondering where the 80% figure comes from.
[/QUOTE]
 
Companies keep track of this sort of thing, and its pretty easy.  Lets say 100 people a year start paddling new in '98, another 100 new in '99, another 100 for '00 and another 100 in '01, then the following year only 20 new paddlers come on board in '02, 10 new paddlers in '03 and 10 for '04..... its just a numbers game.
 
It was not implied that out of 100 current paddlers, that 80 of those 100 decided not to paddle any more, its based of new participation not decreasing current participants  -  Its science - and scare words like 'global warming'. 
 
So in essense, I should have said an 80% decrease in NEW participation to be exact.
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  Quote PaulGamache Replybullet Posted: 14 Feb 2009 at 10:23am
Originally posted by dragorossinw


Not questioning the validity of your stats - just wondering where the 80% figure comes from.

So in essense, I should have said an 80% decrease in NEW participation to be exact.


I really have a hard time believing the numbers.  The main problem is that this only relates to new participation from retail or other sales.  If I give my buddy a bunch of used gear and he buys a used boat online he'll never come up on the "new participant" radar because he never went through the official sales channels which record such things.

The market is flooded w/ gear including old boats and paddles.  Just because newbies nowadays don't have to buy all their gear new doesn't mean that participation of newbies is dropping 80%.  I would agree it's down from the 90's but definitely not equal to what these numbers suggest. 
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  Quote Scott_H Replybullet Posted: 14 Feb 2009 at 1:50pm

My experience has been that learning curve is kind of steep and that probably keeps the sport from growing too quickly.  I thought I was pretty enthusiastic when I started and spent the time to learn the skills, but the first year or so was hard and not without moments of apprehension.  It is hard for me to recommend friends starting it up if I know that they are not really going to commit the time to it.

However, I have had a lot of success taking friends and family along with me in IK's.  While the IK's ultimately are not as fun or responsive as a hard shell, a total novice will generally be able to make it through a Class III on their first day out.  They seem to really get a kick out of being on the river and the IK's allow them to make more mistakes than in a hard shell..and no rolls needed.  Once you dial it above III+, it is a different story, but most folks that I have taken enjoy the experience and a few have expressed interest in making the jump to the hardshell.
 
I really don't know if it is economically feasible to push the IK experience to the beginners as a lower entry bar to ww, but my personal experience has been that I have found more enjoyment with the beginners that I have taken out in the IKs than getting them into a bunch of pool sessions to learn the roll, then a bunch of Powerhouse sessions, then some Class III runs with lots of swims, etc.  Seems like there is a higher rate of dropping out and the amount of used gear out there more often than not has a description that says "tried it and just didn't keep up with it".
 
If I were a business trying to stoke the enthusiasm for kayaking, I might be looking at IK's as a way to get people a shorter path to river enjoyment.  After 4-5 runs, they have gotten comfortable with the river itself and then they might start eyeing the hardshells.  Of course, I have really no good idea of the logistics of setting up IK tours for beginners or offering courses that focus on IK's and what that would require of a business.  But it seems like it might be more popular than rafting, which seems to have less available rivers locally and require bigger drops to maintain excitement.  A III drop in a rafter might be a yawner, but in a beginner in an IK, it is a totally hoot.
 
I took a couple buddies in December down the Sky (running around 3k I think).  They were both pretty apprehensive.  But I took them down the Split Rock to Big Eddy twice (short run), then from BD to Split Rock.  They were totally stoked.  They got ejected here and there, but it was no big deal.  If I had had one more person in a hard shell they totally had it dialed in enough to give BD a swing.
 
“The problem with people who have no vices is that generally you can be pretty sure they're going to have some pretty annoying virtues.”
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