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Tobin
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  Quote Tobin Replybullet Topic: Swimming Ethics
    Posted: 19 Jan 2009 at 10:24am

  I have a question;

If you swim, does it matter how it happened to be considered a swim.

It seems to me, that even if you are sucked out of your boat, it is still considered a swim.

Thoughts?

swmimmer swimmer swimmer swimmer swimmer swimmer swimmer

Sure?
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  Quote STLboater Replybullet Posted: 19 Jan 2009 at 10:53am
My rule of thumb for a swim is that
-you pull skirt

But, if you have a skirt implosion or something of the sort, if you fall outta the boat, its a swim.  Also, if the skirt implosion is due to a large mistake on your part, it is also a swim.

I've had my skirt blow plenty of times playboating, but in no way do i consider it a swim.
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  Quote kebm1979 Replybullet Posted: 19 Jan 2009 at 1:11pm
I had a friend whose skirt didn't fit his creekboat very well, and it seemed to implode at least once a trip down the river.  He was a good enough/ lucky enough paddler that he always managed to make it to shore and empty his boat, but i thought if he ever swam cause of that dang imploded skirt it should count as a swim cause he knew it was gonna implode, and was just being too lazy to buy the correct skirt for his creekboat. 

although I remember once on the Illinois I missed a moved and dropped into a big hole, and in the process of getting worked my skirt blew and I had to swim.  I remember being really pissed cause I was doing a hell of job taking that beating, and despite getting worked, I felt somewhat under control and thought I was gonna eventually flush.  I always hated calling that a swim, but being that by pants were still soaked the next day for the final half of the trip, I was suffering the effects of swimming.  lesson learned wear a drysuit not a drytop/drybib combination for cold multiday boating, and I think since imploded skirts still causing ya to swim, it's swim.  as much as that does suck.

the thing i always like to fight though, is if i rescue all my own gear.  why should i have to do a booty, or buy others beers.  they didn't help me, unless laughing at me counts.
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  Quote Leland Replybullet Posted: 19 Jan 2009 at 3:19pm
I think it's much more technical than that. First, you have to be trying to execute a whitewater move in order for it to be a swim. If you slip getting out of your kayak and fall in the river, it's not a swim. After that, it's got more to do with the depth of the water you exit into. If you exit into water deeper than about mid-calf, it's a swim. If you pin and step out onto dry rock, it might not be a swim.

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  Quote oukr9965 Replybullet Posted: 19 Jan 2009 at 3:36pm

Tobin,

I think what needs to be considered is what caused the implosion/sucking out of boat to happen in the first place.  If a line gets blown, some unintentional hole time is experienced, pinnage occurs and pullage of the skirt happens (even if still upright and dry), or an upset occurs with a succeeding beating rendering ejection from the boat without pulling.....I'd say it constitutes as a swim.  It's nice when your buddies say, well, atleast you didn't miss the roll.  However, deep down inside I know that an error on my part caused me, in one way or another, to end up out of my boat.   If you're playing in a feature, get sucked out/skirt implodes, swim....I'd probably consider it equipment failure (although there are work arounds for it), but a swim none the less.
 
I saw a guy run BZ a couple of weeks/months back and his skirt imploded.  He came out upright and paddled to an eddy.  It was pretty impressive.  In another instance I've seen skirts blow (hammering spot on cc lewis), then a successful roll attempt, and paddle to shore to drain.  So not all implosions cause swims. 
 
Just my $.02.
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Tobin
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  Quote Tobin Replybullet Posted: 19 Jan 2009 at 3:59pm
All good points!
 The problem I am having is this, the swimmer in this case, we will call him 'Lewis' to protect his identity, blew his line and went into a hole at the weir.
  Apparently he was "sucked" from his boat and a few flip, rinse, repeat cycles he swam out.
  I heard about this second hand, and as I am jonesing for anything kayak related, and get a warm fuzzy when 'Lewis' swims, I had to ask him about it, he said " I got sucked out of my boat, there is a difference" & " At least I try to throw myself in big holes"
  From the person who was there, we will call him 'Tiny Tim', I was told that he learned a very valuable lesson. When 'Lewis says"Just follow me Tiny Tim"' Don't!! & " I will never F&*%inf follow 'Lewis' again."
 
  I think this needs clarification, and maybe 'Lewis" will tell us the whole story to fill in any blanks that 'Tiny Tim' left.
 


Edited by Tobin - 19 Jan 2009 at 4:00pm
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  Quote water wacko Replybullet Posted: 19 Jan 2009 at 4:12pm
If Lewis's skirt was still on the boay after said 'sucking' it could count.
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  Quote huckin harms Replybullet Posted: 19 Jan 2009 at 5:24pm
Lewis likely did not get "sucked" out, just can't see it happening like that;  more likely Lewis has a difficult time owning up to a swim (no matter how inadvertant it may have seemed...) 
TIME TO CLEAR THE AIR and DRINK FROM THE BOOT
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  Quote dave Replybullet Posted: 19 Jan 2009 at 5:28pm
Easy Definition:

Swimmer: Not in ones boat and floating/swimming in river.

Nuf said?
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  Quote Chuck e fresh Replybullet Posted: 19 Jan 2009 at 5:52pm
Isn't swimming simple ..if you have no boat and you are kicking your legs and either exicuting an over stroke or doggy paddling your swimming !! Implosion explosion, inversion , oversion, break your boat or getiing sucked out , you've swam ! Suck it up shizat happen's admidt defeat and do it right next time !  If you get your gear yourself and no one helps you you've still swam but you've self rescued and need not drink from the bootie and you owe no one a six pack but yourself ! If your worried about you probably have an ego problem and should seek counsal. I will only charge you 30 bucks a session if your in need of help ! Dr. Chuck-e-fresh M.D M.C 1. Wik wik wack !
There's no such word as can't!so stop making excuses!!!!
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  Quote Tobin Replybullet Posted: 19 Jan 2009 at 7:17pm
Like this Dave? 
 
Yep, out of his boat, in a river!
 
Swimmer swimmer swimmer swimmer swimmer


Edited by Tobin - 19 Jan 2009 at 7:19pm
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  Quote dave Replybullet Posted: 19 Jan 2009 at 8:24pm
I cant believe this @#*&, this is a setup...
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  Quote ashleygoesdisco Replybullet Posted: 19 Jan 2009 at 9:12pm
But... you're out of your boat and swimming, Dave!
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  Quote Chuck e fresh Replybullet Posted: 19 Jan 2009 at 9:25pm
Self rescue thow , no bootie beer !!
There's no such word as can't!so stop making excuses!!!!
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  Quote SupaSta Replybullet Posted: 19 Jan 2009 at 9:45pm
Originally posted by dave

Easy Definition:

Swimmer: Not in ones boat and floating/swimming in river.

Nuf said?
 
Agreed. 
 
I don't understand the controversy.  You're either in your boat or you're not.
 
If keeping count is important to you, then get a skirt that fits, make sure it has an implosion bar, and quit missing your lines => problem solved. 
 
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  Quote Tobin Replybullet Posted: 19 Jan 2009 at 10:10pm

Where is your paddle?  Looks like you missed all your kit?

Back on topic,

"Will the real 'Lewis Please Stand Up, Please Stand Up?'

A note to the Detractors;

All is in good fun, as much as I enjoy a good beat down, it is always with the greatest concern for the person being beaten. Safety first, after the fact, fun and jibes.

Maybe 'Tiny Tim' will give up the bank?

Sure?
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  Quote Larry Replybullet Posted: 19 Jan 2009 at 10:37pm
There are a couple of times where I simply forgot to put the skirt on at all. Once surfin Grannies, It took me a quarter mile to paddle to shore. My head was the only thing sticking ap out of the water and I was paddling for all I was worth with my arms over my head. I think rob almost puked laughing so hard.  The other time was a ten foot seal lauch where I didn't think the boat was ever going to resurface. (I should get float bags for my play boat). In the case of the seal launch, people still had to wait for me to get out, empty my boat, and get back in. So I sometimes count them as a swim even though I didn't swim.
 
So, regardless of gear failure, missed line, intentional bad line, or just plain forgetfullness or stupidity, A Swim is a Swim! (sometimes even when you don't "swim")
 
As for owing beers, or booty beers, I believe the point is repayment for energy and time lost in retreiving gear. Therefore; Complete self rescue = no beer or booty beer owed.
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  Quote justin Replybullet Posted: 19 Jan 2009 at 10:39pm
This thread should be called the semantics of swimming.
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  Quote James Replybullet Posted: 19 Jan 2009 at 10:57pm
I hate to even chime in on this thread because it's like a horse that just won't die...

Its all on the boater in question. Self Rescue or not....


I know of folks that sip the booty after self rescues on steep runs, and of folks that won't even touch the bootie after long epic extractions on road side class IV. We love em all... it's up to the boater, then the group on how much crap they want to talk....

Heck I'm sure we all know some dudes that pound the booties even if they miss lines... its a method of self punishment and group chastastion for poor technique.

All in good fun at the take out after a run
Unzip the bootie and don't be so snootie
guzzle the suds and laugh with yer buds
try harder next time and best stick that line
the dirtier the sock the more you will rock
cry on my shoulder you bootie beholder!!!


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  Quote Larry Replybullet Posted: 19 Jan 2009 at 11:42pm
Yes, James, it is up to each individual or group. But what I stated was my personal rule of thumb.
 
If someone else rescues me and/or my gear and the "booty" is not enforced, I buy the rescue party beer (or beverage of there choice). And if it is "epic" than maybe a meal. The river gods (and boating buds) must be appeased.
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  Quote Tobin Replybullet Posted: 19 Jan 2009 at 11:46pm

All the semantics can be pushed to the side, if..... ' Lewis' will reveal himself?

Doubtful as that is, I do enjoy the companionship that comes at the take out when a person, or a few have swam. It is a common point that all kayakers have in common. Place the style, ability, prefence, and posturing aside, we all swim now and again.

  Some less than others, some more, but it is a bonding moment for the trip, to know that you paddle with good people, that have your back and you have theirs. There ain't a damn thing wrong with a good swim now and again.

I'd love to swim out of my kayak tomorrow.
  I honestly believe it is a debrief, or detox, how ever you see it.
 
Now...  "Will the real Slim Lewis, Please stand up"?
Sure?
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  Quote STLboater Replybullet Posted: 20 Jan 2009 at 7:45am
I took my first "swim" on the truss this season.  I rolled up in the cave and my skirt was off and my boat half full of water.  However, i went off the lip of big brother a little crooked which probably caused my skirt to blow.  I stayed in the boat, and didn't get out for 5 minutes until i was next to the shore, at which point i hopped out and grabbed my boat.  I messed up, my swim.
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  Quote tradguy2 Replybullet Posted: 20 Jan 2009 at 12:38pm
There is one person I can think of who is notably absent from this discussion.  I wonder if he is Lewis?
... preparing for a river beating!     
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  Quote dave Replybullet Posted: 20 Jan 2009 at 1:57pm
In the picture above, I posed for that shot. I jumped in the river with my boat and they took my picture for fun. It has haunted me ever since....
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  Quote SupaSta Replybullet Posted: 20 Jan 2009 at 4:56pm
Originally posted by dave

In the picture above, I posed for that shot. ....


Whatever dude. 

Just own-up to it already 
Life is short, paddle hard!
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