Professor Paddle: Winter Wonderland on the Sky Discussion Thread
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RemAcct2
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  Quote RemAcct2 Replybullet Topic: Winter Wonderland on the Sky Discussion Thread
    Posted: 19 Dec 2008 at 6:26pm

This is the Winter Wonderland on the Sky discussion thread. Please post any questions below.

Remember the actual Trip Details are located on the Winter Wonderland on the Sky | Trip Page

Should be a great day on Saturday, and the scenery is spectacular...  Dress warmly.

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  Quote Guests Replybullet Posted: 19 Dec 2008 at 6:50pm
Leif-

I drove past the sky yesterday, highly recommend NOT running it at the moment.

**Ice bergs are floating in flat water, frozen eddies, pile ups of ice in larger pools could be forming ice bridges. I saw one appearing to form bellow the confluence. Also, tomorrow is supposed to be extremely cold with sustained winds of 50-70mph (see NOAA high wind advisory). It is supposed to be the worst in the cascade foothills.

Seriously, I would recommend that everyone stay off the river tomorrow.

Please advise.
d

EDIT: The weather service is using words such as 'lethal and disastrous' to describe the winds scheduled to hit tomorrow afternoon/evening.

Edited by kayaktheworld - 19 Dec 2008 at 6:55pm
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  Quote PaulGamache Replybullet Posted: 19 Dec 2008 at 7:20pm
Think I'll sit this one out and watch all the cars around Seattle crashing everywhere Nascar style.

I'd take KTW advice on this on Leif, plenty of way cooler ways to go out then freezing to death on the sky...
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  Quote RemAcct2 Replybullet Posted: 19 Dec 2008 at 8:10pm
As far as I can tell, winds shouldn't kick up untill evening. The scenery is spectacular, and flows quite low. May call off - I need to finish off Christmas shoping anyway.
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  Quote Guests Replybullet Posted: 19 Dec 2008 at 9:09pm
The wind isnt the worst of your worries man.... *ice*
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  Quote ashleygoesdisco Replybullet Posted: 19 Dec 2008 at 9:37pm
Geez guys. Paddling with all the freshies 30minutes up the road?
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  Quote RemAcct2 Replybullet Posted: 19 Dec 2008 at 9:44pm
Boarded in pow the last two days. No more fresh until Sun/Mon. Had to hike today to get the goods. Need to work other set of muscles.
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  Quote Jeff Replybullet Posted: 19 Dec 2008 at 10:44pm
Have to check the conditions in the am.  If it looks sketchy, we bail, but if not, I gotta get on the water!  Maybe the Powerhouse as a last resort! 
 
Bless me Fibnok, for I have sinned!  It has been over three weeks since my last kayaking trip! I have commited the sins of working too much and not boating enough, the sin of thinking of other sports before I thought of boating, and my only saving redemption was that I watched at least one issue of LVM while drinking beer while frozen in  in Denver!  Need to KAYAK!!!!!!!
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  Quote Texas Dave Replybullet Posted: 20 Dec 2008 at 7:49am
You gotta be crazy to go out today.  It's 0 degrees this morning in Granite Falls.  Just a little too nippy for me.
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  Quote huckin harms Replybullet Posted: 20 Dec 2008 at 7:56am
rob mc gibbin is planning on getting out today. not sure bout myself yet. ktw is right aobut the ice formations on the water, but lines are still open whre the water is moving. swimming would be very dangerous. that said the scenery would be sublime.
a note on pass condtions- only two lifts open last 2 days- hogs & skyline with long lift lines.
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  Quote Liz Replybullet Posted: 20 Dec 2008 at 7:57am
 
 
 
I wanted to find a picture of a kayaking snowman, but no luck.  So, I'm posting these instead... 
 
 
 
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  Quote dragorossinw Replybullet Posted: 20 Dec 2008 at 8:08am
I've got about a foot of snow here at my place by the EFL and I'm scared to leave my house.  Will someone bring me a meals on wheels please?
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  Quote dave Replybullet Posted: 20 Dec 2008 at 10:04am
Cold is not what I want today... we had 4 inch icicles forming off of our helmets last weekend.
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  Quote Guests Replybullet Posted: 20 Dec 2008 at 11:14am
I truly cannot believe that anyone is considering going out today. The disregard for safety, especially from one of the better paddlers mentioned, is shameful and arrogant. To think that you can combat the cold conditions is simply foolhardy.

I will repeat myself. THERE IS ICE IN THE EDDIES. And, since stating the facts did not seem to work, I will explain them as well. Ice covering eddies means that a swimmer would have to break through ice. You could end up UNDER THE ICE.

In the near 0 degree temps and 32 degree water, you would probably be hypothermic instantly and have a lot of difficulty swimming to the frozen eddie through the slush.

You guys need to realize that although the river is class III/IV in regular weather, you need to consider it class IV/V (at least). You should not only consider this run class IV/V in difficulty but also in danger. In the case of safety, I cannot help but be brutally honest: Not a single one of you is a class V paddler. Rob Mickibbon should know better. As a good boater he should know better. He should realize the complete lack of safety. He should also be a better example for the community. I can't believe it.

You guys are probably getting close to the river right now so hopefully you come to these realizations on your own. I hope that none of you is injured or worse in this endeavor.

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  Quote RemAcct2 Replybullet Posted: 20 Dec 2008 at 1:12pm
Trip went well. Minimal ice (takeout and put in). Best scenery of the year.
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  Quote septimus prime Replybullet Posted: 20 Dec 2008 at 2:17pm
Great time today!
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  Quote jP Replybullet Posted: 20 Dec 2008 at 2:54pm
"Kayak The World" huh? Listen, son, I'm obviously gonna have to set you straight on a few points.

Unfortunately, It'll have to wait till I get to a full sized keyboard to adequately express myself.

For now let me just say that the sky. Was absollutely beautiful today, and those whom you've insulted exhibited more than adequate skill to have fun, be safe, and stay warm.

If paddling in a winter wonderland freaks you out so much, stay in front of your computer. Wait. I guess that's what you did.
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  Quote Guests Replybullet Posted: 20 Dec 2008 at 2:57pm
Yes, I did. I respect the dangers that kayaking on a day like today presents. I don't need to remind you, jp, about what can happen when you disrespect adverse conditions on the sky.

Anyway, that's the last I'll say on this. I don't want to get into a long argument with you. I know that some people reading this will see me as the jerk who overreacts about safety. Hopefully some people will take a bit away from it and exercise caution with these conditions. I hope that you guys keep getting lucky.

Edited by kayaktheworld - 20 Dec 2008 at 3:00pm
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  Quote dave Replybullet Posted: 20 Dec 2008 at 3:27pm
After boating last weekend on the Upper Green Gorge in 20 deg weather I will have to agree with KTW. One should really consider their competency level when going out in these conditions.

Just be safe and know what you will be in for and be prepared for it. Cause if you swim in subzero temps it will not be a happy time!

Otherwise if you are prepared have a great time out there! I know it is just to cold for me when it is like this, my hands just hurt so badly I cant hardly stand it. If I could just keep my hands warm then I would be throwing down my creekboat in the ice!
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  Quote James Replybullet Posted: 20 Dec 2008 at 3:48pm
I think it is crazy and I wish I could have been out there with you guys... Family is in town so alas, I had to skip out.

Although some will not understand or agree, KTW is very accurate about the dangers of kayaking in cold weather and the need to be safe.  I am glad people in our community care enough to be the unpopular voice. Thanks KTW!

In the future though, you gotta respect everyone's right to make decisions. Voice Concern, Make the statement, but don't cut people down, and don't be so abrasive.

The classification of a class V paddler is something best left to another thread, but I will say that your certainly off base in your statement that there are no class V paddlers other than Rob on this run. The presence of truth is absent in this aforementioned statement, in that Rob is not a class V paddler either. To encapsulate, he is more of a Soul Boater. Which is of the shit that defies classification. Mingled with the consideration that he himself did not even post - Why respond with agro? Furthermore, there are several duteous class V paddlers in the aforementioned posts, so I would conclude this to be a statement of inaccuracy.

In an effort of final capitulation, if you could have stopped after the second post it would have been optimal.  Indubitably I need not be posting at all either... but after a nonsense voicemail from JP I felt inclined to let him know I was laughing all morning over this.

In summary to re-state the imperitive of this thread, the hidden dangers of ice, in rivers, mixed drinks or the sky should not be under estimated. Think about the changes to our sport if the Inuits never went out and paddled when ice was present... I think that is the root of paddling so we all might have been in trouble... if they were not so skilled and responsible.

So as a compromise I suggest that the folks who paddled the sky today, don't ever consider doing that again unless they can: A) roll with a large harp seal in there lap while keeping your hands behind your head - greenland style, or B) Run class W+ with a paddle covered in walrus fat while holding a lit candle. Walrus fat is flamable by the way so you might stick with option A.
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  Quote septimus prime Replybullet Posted: 20 Dec 2008 at 4:39pm
KTW, I don't need you telling me who or what I am or not. I know who I am as a boater and made a choice. We choose our own paths.


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  Quote jP Replybullet Posted: 20 Dec 2008 at 5:21pm
well now that I have a full stomach and a satisfied heart, well, I warned you I'd be back.  Thanks to all of the reasonable thoughts expressed by everyone... except YOU "Kayak The World". It's easy to spout reasonable sounding safety tips from your armchair kayak. But they only serve as a vehicle for your true intentions:

To cast YOURSELF as some kind of authority, and bolster your own ego. and thus this is now the subject of this thread. I've been trying to be a nice guy around here lately, and not be so much of an asshole that I admit (laughingly, with perhaps a tinge of regret) I've been in the past. But you've unleashed the venom, son. If you don't want long arguments, don't start them.


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  Quote jP Replybullet Posted: 20 Dec 2008 at 5:37pm
Originally posted by kayaktheworld

I truly cannot believe that anyone is considering going out today. The disregard for safety, especially from one of the better paddlers mentioned, is shameful and arrogant. To think that you can combat the cold conditions is simply foolhardy.

---So why is it "shamefull and Arrogant"?  There was ABSOLUTELY NO DISREGARD FOR SAFETY. For the record, the most dangerous part was post-holing down to the put in at Cable Drop. Once we got paddling, well, my toes were cold from walking through snow. Then, they WARMED UP!! Drysuits are AMAZING!! I layered up so thick, my hands were RADIATING heat from my pogies. Fingers and toes were warm the whole time.

I will repeat myself. THERE IS ICE IN THE EDDIES. And, since stating the facts did not seem to work, I will explain them as well. Ice covering eddies means that a swimmer would have to break through ice. You could end up UNDER THE ICE.

----- Yeah, there were large ice sheets at the following locations: In the big eddy at Cable drop Put-in, and in the big eddy at the Split rock take out. Yeah, if you act like a dpishit, or aren't Qualified to be out there, you could probably find yourself in trouble. It's true. So if you want ot paddle in such conditions, yuo MUST NOT FUCK UP. Don't flip, don't lose control, and it's just another trip down the sky.

In the near 0 degree temps and 32 degree water, you would probably be hypothermic instantly and have a lot of difficulty swimming to the frozen eddie through the slush.

---damn right. you have no bussiness being out there if you might swim. maybe it's good YOU weren't there? I don't know. Don't know you. Don't know how you boat. I just know from the way you shoot your mouth off that you are an alarmist.

You guys need to realize that although the river is class III/IV in regular weather, you need to consider it class IV/V (at least). You should not only consider this run class IV/V in difficulty but also in danger. In the case of safety, I cannot help but be brutally honest: Not a single one of you is a class V paddler. Rob Mickibbon should know better. As a good boater he should know better. He should realize the complete lack of safety. He should also be a better example for the community. I can't believe it.

---First off, Rob wasn't wereing ANY pants. OR any other clothes but a life jacket. He had icicles collecting on his armpit hairs, but that didn't stop him from throwing down at Luch Hole. Just kiddin, Rob DIDN'T EVEN GO. His gear was frozen from some previous icy trip. He wanted me to tell you though that next time he'll call and ask your permission before he goes out paddling.
-----Second, Rob is everybit of a class V paddler, and anyone who knows him knows that. You're a f**king idiot. Don't try to project your comfort zone onto other people. Whatever you do PLEASE refrain from trying to tell people who they are, esspeccially when you don't even know them, or how they paddle.

You guys are probably getting close to the river right now so hopefully you come to these realizations on your own. I hope that none of you is injured or worse in this endeavor.

---your token comment about hoping we're not injured is so transparently inscincere:
A way to cap off your bucket full of crap and make you sound like you care.
Well, guess what? we're all ok, we had a GREAT time, we were safe, and stayed warm.
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  Quote PaulGamache Replybullet Posted: 20 Dec 2008 at 5:42pm
Everyone needs to back off KTW and take a second to read this:

http://www.boatertalk.com/forum/BoaterTalk/1591242

It's from Will Pruett who was at the NF Chick on Dec 11th 2008 when the solo boater drowned in the flood stage river.  I won't summerize his sentiment you'll have to read it and interprete it.

Personally I welcome people telling me when something is a bad idea and if it's a really bad idea I hope they scream, yell, and try to talk some sense into me.  Most of the time I'll ignore it if I'm deadset on doing something but hope that when I'm about to do something that will really injury me or worse my friends are yelling at me not to do it especially if all the warning signs are there.

In my opinion, kayaking the sky today was a bad idea.  Maybe not for JP or Leif or anyone else who went but for me it was far too dangerous.  Swims can happen anytime, anywhere, to any boater regardless of skill level.  Pins, working in holes, getting hit with a rock in the back when you flip, skirt malfunction, dislocated shoulder, heart attack, etc can all lead to you swimming.  

Even if you're safe, what about the people you are on the water w/ you where this can happen to them, are you ready to deal w/ that? To enter into freezing cold water and from all reports containing floating ice, the chances of survival are minimal at best.  Again in my opinion this is not a safe means of paddling, I'm sure others will disagree.

Glad you all had an amazing safe trip on the sky.  I spent the day pushing slidding cars all over the streets of Seattle. 

Tomorrow we're going to go snow yaking down the streets if anyone wants to go!
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  Quote jP Replybullet Posted: 20 Dec 2008 at 5:54pm
I'm not done yet, Kidd-o. I'd like to say I've been paddling since you were in diapers, but I can't. Because the truth is I've been paddling since before you were born. Quite likely been paddling class V since before you were born.

Septimus Prime probably said it best. You started a flaming war, and I love it! because I need those flames to thaw out my frozen gear and dry it in time for my next trip!

"Kayak The World", you'll have an awfull hard time kayaking the world with your attitude. There are so many ways I could cut you down, but who wants to read all that? I mean, I'm guilty enough already, but what  can I say? you opened up another can of the Jerry Springer Show here. And I'm having FUN with it, you mis-guided young whippersnapper!!
Look, just lighten up. Of course safety is important. Your reasonable points, as James pointed out, are tainted by your need to try to demean others. I can take it, but I'm bothered that you insulted my friends. I really am.

Take my advice, "Kayak The World", the paddling WORLD is a small one. Always has been, and still is. Carefull who you try to put yourself above. It's petty bullshit. You're just another member (a VERY new member) of the community. You are not some Law Maker or safety Sherrif. Show some respect, and it'll come back to you. Be a punk, and get punked.

Dude, If I ever meet you, I'm still prepared to shake your hand and laugh about all this silly theater. Let's hope you're man enough to do the same. All in good fun.
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