Topic: Seat positioning Posted: 26 Nov 2013 at 6:15pm
Mostly this is talked about as a general preference, with little reference to general attributes of weight foreward/aft, not to mention being high or low on a given boat capacity.
Those of you who know more or can chime in on what I'm hoping to expose as a good guideline for people learning how to set up boats (I'm still figuring it out, and of course it is a little subjective, despite general truths).
I'm usually at the top of the weight range (if not over) for the boats I routinely paddle, but as I've made more toe dips into the big boat world, I've wondered a bit more about not only weight vs. volume, but where that weight is placed and what different characteristics it generally brings out in boat design.
Can you more knowledgeable people give your two cents? Thanks!
I think it all comes down to the boat in question, and secondly, preference. A boat with lots of rocker and hard chines can act completely different when the seat is moved back or forward by an inch. It seems to me like boats that have semi-planing hulls with lots of rocker are some of the most sensitive to this. Right now I'm paddling a Mafia as my creeker. It has a ton of rocker (especially in the bow) with fairly soft edges in the middle, and much more defined edges in the bow and stern. Having played with the seat position a bit I can say that being too far forward makes the boat plow water and be really susceptible to being pushed around where others may not and/or catching an edge since they're always closer to being engaged. Being too far back in this boat will punish because it's a fairly low volume stern and has pretty well defined edges there too. Being that there's a lot of rocker in the boat, that has led to more than a few back enders. All of this affects turning ability, but in different ways. In total, we're talking a difference of maybe two inches of adjustment that makes or breaks it in my boat.
I said that preference has something to do with it because there are sometimes where I would prefer the advantages/disadvantages or being more forward or backwards, but mostly I leave it put and learn to paddle it that way. I should really just get a different boat, or rather, my boat should just find a better paddler.
For comparisons sake, when I've been paddling a mamba (not much rocker, fairly consistent chine throughout the boat) the only reason I've moved the seat is to fit my legs in. I'd imagine that it makes a difference where the seat is, but it certainly isn't as drastic. I haven't spent much time in full on displacement hull boats (Nomad might be next when the Mafia finally breaks), so I can't speak to them but I could see that seat position might make a lot of difference there as well.
i always wanna be right in the middle. too far back, the boat is a little more stable but also more sluggish and prone to spin. too far forward and it's easier to go straight but it becomes harder to boof and turn. either way the boat becomes a little less maneuverable than the optimal, which is right in the middle, perfectly balanced and attached with your knees and hips, able to lean forward or back to effect the boat's movement as you choose. this requires testing the boat in different set-ups to determine the best feel for you.
continuous rocker boats are more sensitive to seat position than a boat with a flatter bottom. chines are engaged with fore/aft leaning, so seat position could definitely cause the chines to engage in different ways. chine location and angle will play into that, obviously.
sitting all alone on a mountain by a river that has no end
too far back, the boat is a little more stable but also more sluggish and prone to spin. too far forward and it's easier to go straight but it becomes harder to boof and turn. either way the boat becomes a little less maneuverable than the optimal
continuous rocker boats are more sensitive to seat position than a boat with a flatter bottom. chines are engaged with fore/aft leaning, so seat position could definitely cause the chines to engage in different ways. chine location and angle will play into that, obviously.
I chopped out a little, sorry.
The first part is more of what I was looking to learn. The general attributes of weight forward vs. back.
Second part is just some icing and welcome, too. Especially your point on how progressive rocker is more susceptible to weight location than a planing hull.
Thank you.
For more clarification, and allowing that different boats and different paddler postures can change things, are there general ideas about seat position if someone is high or low on a recommended weight range in relation to being in the "middle" as you've put it? Or is it irrelevant the paddlers weight and the fore/aft position is a general truth regardless? I know this is prone to subjectivity, but I know there are general characteristics (as recognized in your first comment) that I would love to know more about.
Coming from planing hull small boats, being high on the weight range, and being as far forward as possible, I like the performance I've got, but it is a different ball of wax to big boats.
Does a forward seat make boofing hard because the stern is sticking out a little farther from the hips (and therefore stuck in the water or on the rock)? One might think that having less bow out there would make lifting the knees/bow easier, but there's obviously more to it than that.
As for tracking, I know that at times I dip an edge to act like a keel to halt a carve/spin in my small boats, but a lot of mental energy is also used minding the rest of the edge that may get caught where I don't want it to. Less of an issue for rounder hulls and lower rocker, I presume, but how else can forward or backward weight affect tracking/turning? In general, of course.
My point in this topic is not to be so specific.i'm hoping to promote knowledge sharing of general outcomes from weighting a boat fore or aft.
Consider this for a metaphor:
The front wheels on a car can be adjusted several ways. Let us choose two- toe and camber. Consider these similar to seat position and posture.
Sure there are specifics and other influences depending on exactly which car/boat we're discussing, but in general toe out promotes oversteer while toe in promotes understeer. Negative camber does well in cornering but poorly for putting the power down and braking.
I know there are general tendencies for boat behavior if one is seated forward or aft, and at that, an aggressive posture may offset a slightly aft seat position, and a slouched or reclined posture may require a more forward seat for a similar ride to the former. There's whole lot more, and I acknowledge this.
But if manufacturers give seat placement options, as well as footrest adjustments (oh, yeah, remember, we're generally discussing big boats here, not play boats), they're allowing for preference as well as fit. I'm just hoping to learn more about what to expect, and hoping others may learn as well.
I've heard many newbies like me complain about how a boat paddles (tracking, speed, and balance over features) without knowing that the setup is the culprit, not the boat in general. I know, some people like certain edges, hull/rocker profiles, etc., and they will perform differently. That isn't what I'm aiming at. At all. I liked the speed of a Remix I paddled, but wanted more edge. Irrelevant. Good edges on a Burn, but more rocker would make for more ease getting on top of features and boofing. Irrelevant.
Chipmaney was opening the can'o'worms I'm interested in and I'm glad to attain that knowledge.
Just looking for more in that realm, and hoping others can benefit from open discourse as well.
Any knowledge about fore to aft weight placement on continuous rocker, progressive rocker, displacement, semi-displacement, whatever anyone knows about, that is what I think many people would like to know. There really isn't any solid scientific standard, I'm sure, but there are general trends, I'm certain.
So like a race car driver wanting to dial out some understeer, or make sure a they have better rubber to road contact when cornering, it's all a trade off, but there is knowledge.
For comparisons sake, when I've been paddling a mamba (not much rocker, fairly consistent chine throughout the boat) the only reason I've moved the seat is to fit my legs in. I'd imagine that it makes a difference where the seat is, but it certainly isn't as drastic.
Unless you're using a tiny Mamba, isn't the footrest there for inseam adjustment?
A friend once asked a local shop about setting up a boat, and I was annoyed with the answer:
First- get your footrest set, then adjust your seat.
This seemed backward because, like my initial questions, it seems it is more important to make sure the boat is trimmed right, and then trimmed to one's paddling posture in moving water. Footblocks/bulkheads are adjusted after you've got your weight where you're happy.
You know I love ya, BP, so I don't mean to be taken as jabbing you. Not how you'd hear me expressing this in conversation. All the best intentions from this side of the screen.
Oh, and is all of this, in general, regardless of being high or low on a given weight rating?
I always wondered if the manufacturers also intended for lighter paddlers to be forward, or back, or if it was all just adjustable for changing boat handling characteristics.
Naw, its all good, I just didn't explain myself very well. In that particular case I couldn't get enough legroom by moving the bulkhead alone so had to move the seat. You're right though, setting the bulkhead first is backwards.
Ideally, you would have an even trim, and then go from there based on your preferences. To get boat specific, since a few popular designs are no longer exclusively displacement or planing, I will give you my preference in my Recon, which is also my general preference with most boats I have paddled (Stomper, Burn, Everest, Jefe): weight forward/forward trim. In the recon, this releases the edges which are more prominent in the rear of the boat which makes the boat, what some would call, "squirrely". I like it because it is easy to adjust and micro adjust my angle, and I feel it boofs better this way and also makes it easier to stay over the boat and engaged (which is really important in a boat as big as the recon 93). I use a lot of duffek and other forward draw/adjustment strokes which are more powerful from a seat forward position. If I move the seat to a rear trim in the recon, it is much more "locked in", particularly in bigger water. It ferries better and paddles big water in a way that more represents the way a boat with a more planing hull would handle. If I am putting on a big water run (SF Salmon, NF Payette, etc) I might move my seat back a bit so I have a bit more edging control.
In general, for weight in boats, the lower you are on the weight range, the higher you float in the water and the more you stay on top of features. This is desirable/not desirable based on the kind of paddling you are doing. In big water, you dont necessarily want a ton of volume because more of your boat is not in contact with the water. Since edge control and edging is so important in big water for navigation, and since having more boat in the water increases the effective length of a boat (think speed here), you can see why big water paddlers use boats like the remix which are long, but have less volume than you would find in a modern creek boat (biggest remix is 79 gallons, which is less volume than most mid-size creek boats). For creeking, however, being on top of the water is more of an advantage because you are less susceptible to subbing out and going off line, particularly in rapids that have small, but complex and powerful cross currents/waves. On a run like the little white, having a high volume creek boat is nice because they boof easier and stay on top of features which is important for lining up crucial moves. While individuals use creek boats on big water runs, and vice-versa, I think the bigger disadvantage is to those who use creek boats on big water, hole filled runs. All that volume and the way it is shaped (bulbous) makes it very easy to get stuck in large hydraulics, or get pushed around by large waves.
Your second paragraph is more of what I was questioning in my topic about creekboat volume and paddler weight, where as in this topic I was questioning where that weight is placed both in general, and potentially if one is high or low on the given weight range.
For instance:
weight range 100-160lbs, are the same general handling attributes for seat position witnessed for a 110lbs paddler as a 160lbs paddler?
Welcome information all the same, though not addressing the question at hand.
Basically, I'm hoping to learn, and utilize knowledge like in your first paragraph about adjusting the seat for different runs (if warranted), to exploit the general characteristics of weight placement, as well as fine tune a future boat(s) based on knowing what characteristics it is exhibiting and what I'd prefer.
And that nails it: we're told to adjust it to where we like it, but nobody mentions what to expect, nor why. I guess I'm trying to cut out the middle man (long hours of experimentation) in favor of knowledgable advice witnessed by more experience paddlers.
Lots of great info here from all of you on a topic some of us don't think to ask about until it's caused an issue... Thank you guys. @Ellingferd : I'm curious about your last line- perhaps PM me your thoughts on Jackson? I'm always curious about boat opinions. :-)
You cannot post new topics in this forum You cannot reply to topics in this forum You cannot delete your posts in this forum You cannot edit your posts in this forum You cannot create polls in this forum You cannot vote in polls in this forum
Register
Login
Active Topics
Memberlist
Search
IP Logged
