that title is pretty broad. I am curious about proper rolling / bracing technique to avoid injury.  Folks talk about creating the box between your shoulders, elbows and paddle, and generally paddling / moving with your core muscles and keeping that box fairly the same.

rolling technique has clearly advanced since the Eskimos era.Whenever folks are learning to roll a kayak, the advice is always the same.  "keep your head down and keep that elbow glued in to your ribs"

But thinking critically about that elbow,  if that elbow is seriously glued to the ribs, it seems unnatural and possibly putting unnecessary force on the shoulder.   maybe keeping the elbow at like 30 degrees off the ribs is where its at?  that is more in the standard "box".  any insight on that?

and the ear to the shoulder thing is fine if  you want to skate by with a with a mediocre role.  I remember back in the day sitting through  a video (cant remember name) in which the message was to look down the shaft of your paddle at the end of  the roll. This helps complete the torso rotation all the way up through the head.



on a different subject, sometimes i see those demsh*tz guys pulling boof stokes and it looks like their grip on the paddle is fairly narrow compared to other times.  maybe they can gain more leverage on the paddle that way.  when i have tried to narrow my grip on the paddle, it seems to require more core movement to get as big of a stroke as normal, but not sure about gaining any more power or leverage.


any good videos or literature out there?

keeping your back hand on the boat plastic is solid advice for a roll, i guess, but this is not a key component of the roll. although what it does is ensure your body remains in the center of the boat (as opposed to releasing and going to the back deck) if you wanna prevent injury on a roll, then focus driving the paddle to the surface. after that, forget about the paddle and focus on core twist/release and hip snapping. the paddle is superfluous. once you get off your paddle and roll using the part of your body that actually connected to the boat, shoulder injury becomes less of a concern.

also, keep your head down and connected to the boat is good information but does nothing to help you actually accomplish those things. drills, drills, drills. drills lock in the muscle memory. flailing on the roll without first doing drills is a recipe for developing poor technique. i know.

much more likely you will hurt your shoulder bracing as your hand gets behind your hips and/or above your chin. the best way to combat this is to drill you forward stroke, making sure you keep your arms relatively straight, stay in the box, and most importantly complete the stroke at or in front of your hips. otherwise, you paddle a forward stroke behind your hips, then your boat gets unstable requiring a brace and you're in trouble.

and remember, the best brace is a forward stroke. an active paddle improves boat control and stability, thus decreasing the potential for needing a full-on bracing stroke in the first place.

Edited by chipmaney - 26 Sep 2013 at 2:36pm

Its a cool discussion, and ironicly, a topic that rarely seems to come up on these forums. All the responses so far offer their own pieces of the puzzle. Perhaps Chipper's post providing the most detail.



Yup. But I gaurrantee you that the eskimo figured out how to paddle a kayak in a straight line efficiently years, if not centuries, before he learned to roll one. I firmly believe that focusing on forward paddling will indirectly lead towards having a solid roll.

I would emphasise the forward stroke, particularly in flatwater where you don't have the distraction of reading water and reacting to it. There you can explore that box, in chunks of about 50-100 strokes at a time. The box you mentioned sits on your spray deck. The top of the box comes up to your nipples, or your chin. Experiment with this. You can define the sides of the box with your hands and/or your elbows. Shoulder width, or "slightly wider than" typifies the kayaker's stance traditionally, but you will see paddlers with their hands closer together, and others who spread them wider. Experiementation should naturally dial you in.

Rolling:
You have a wind-up and and unwinding of the torso very similar to the wind-up and unwinding motion used in the forward stroke, it is just alligned along a different axis. This is evident in the set up, where the paddler tucks pretty far over the left side of the boat. Then through the sweep to the finish position that torso twists, as Chipper mentioned. This twist keeps everything tight in that same box you should be exploring through repetitive flatwater paddling and meditation (muscle memory). Looking down that shaft is a good way to keep the head down as you focus on that active blade. After keeping the trailing hand in contact with the side of the boat, those knuckles also rotate toward your face. This sheds resistance at the end of the roll, keeping the blade from diving. Its not an accident that this text book finish position resembles a dufek, so it wouldn't hurt to practice that, too. And I don't care what anyone says: the dufek is by no means an out dated or out moded piece of technique. On the contrary. Anyone who says a dufek isn't useful simply doesn't know what they think they know, or otherwise they are splitting hairs in a way that doesn't matter.

There are so many fine points that compose an effective roll. It can be hard to isolate them, but its probably best to try to focus on only a few at a time. But you can also break it down according to where each of those fine points fall along the "timeline" of the roll. Basicly you got:
1) setup
2) sweep/hip snap
3) finish position

As far as the narrower grip requiring more torso movement, I think you are correct. Ussually guys with a narrower stance/grip also paddle with straighter arms. I like to have what I call a "Three Quarter Moon" stance on my paddle. Imagine a circle. Crop 1/4 of it off. Where that line is, that's your paddle shaft. Your arms encompass the 3/4 remaining circle between the paddle shaft and your torso. I find this leaves my arms somewhat extended yet slightly bent at the elbows. Gives me a good stance to stay in that box, yet still have a good rigid connection to that paddle. The arms just connect your torso to the paddle. The torso twist provides all the power to the blades.

That box doesn't have to be too small, either. I think that a lot of paddlers take in the protective advice of the whole "box" metaphor, and end up using their arms to propel their boat because they are afraid to extend their reach. fu*k that. You can make that box bigger and still "stay inside" it. But yes, you may find your shoulders are more vulnerable with this extension. So you need to be more flexible, stronger, and also more sensitive to the forces working on the blade(s). It becomes more important to rotate your torso with your paddling movements.

You know me: by now I'm lost in this sh*t. Hope some of it helps :)

Edited by jP - 25 Sep 2013 at 11:21pm

Great stuff. I'll be re reading this for awhile trying to grok every bit. I like the slow roll practice idea. I need to try and wean myself off the paddle.

i just can't let this ignorant (literally) talk about Eskimos pass. In no world could whitewater kayaking rolls be considered more advanced than Eskimo/Greenland style.

If you go to the greenland sea kayak races held each year, where some of the world's best boater's show up, you will see it includes a rolling competition. The competition involves demonstration of something like 35 unique roll techniques. These rolls include stuff like 'the seal landed on my boat and broke my paddle and I need to roll with one blade' kind of sh*t. As far as I can tell, we use 3 rolls: sweep, c to c, back deck. The fact that we absconded the most basic roll from the Eskimos in no way diminishes Eskimos' vast array of knowledge about kayaks and rolling.

http://www.qajaqusa.org/Technique/Rescues.html

Back in the day, these dudes lived in the sea. They got their life from the sea. They hunted from kayaks. Every day. In that environment, failure to roll meant death. They have more types of rolls than you could even dream of.

And by the way, there is a Greenland-style competition every year in Seattle. It's usually in late October/early November. Go. Acquire knowledge. Oh wait, no, go kayaking instead.

Don't be dissing Eskimos.

Edited by chipmaney - 26 Sep 2013 at 2:34pm

Armpit or Shotgun Roll:

Greenland rolling is awesome.  I think there are something like 35 different rolls that are used in competition and it can take years to learn them all, if ever.  They also have these "rope tricks" that they use on dry land to build strength, coordination, and flexibility needed for their rolls.  Kind of like a combination of slack-lining and gymnastics.  The culture developed around kayaking over thousands of years.  WW boating isn't just in its infancy compared to Greenland kayaking, we're just a zygote in the womb.

Having said all that, I'm also going to say that many common Greenland rolling and bracing techniques are not suitable for WW, and can really f you up.  Why?  Because Greenland rolls often end in a layback position and a stern-weighted WW boat in swirly water is going to catch an edge and go right back over.  Also, Greenland bracing technique  frequently involves hanging out on the side of your boat, half-submerged.  It's a great technique for deep water and even in breaking waves, but if you do that sh*t on a fast, rocky river you are just asking to get your teeth knocked in or your shoulder dislocated.  If you're upside down in a river, you need to remain tucked until you roll.  No hanging out with your face exposed!  I have been in online arguments before with Greenland guys who like to do these techniques in WW.  Again, it's fine in deep water (like the Grand Canyon) but not in shallow, rocky fast moving WW.

Personally, I don't mess around with Greenland technique because I don't want it screwing up my WW roll.

Chipper, please don't get riled up.  I realize that you only brought up Greenland Rolling to show how advanced it is.  However, it's very easy for someone to watch those videos and think, "Damn, that's so cool!  I'm gonna try that sh*t on a river in my whitewater boat!"  And people do it, for sure.  And since this is a thread that will get read by beginners, I wanted to explain why certain Greenland techniques do not lend themselves to WW boating.  That's all.

One other thing:  If anyone does want to learn Greenland Rolling, it's best to get a Greenland kayak or even a kayak specifically designed for Greenland rolling competitions.  These boats are super low volume, and their decks are so low they are almost half submerged right from the start.  And the paddler is shoe-horned into them and their legs are out straight in front of them.  All this is done to get the paddler's center of gravity as low as possible and create the least resistance possible for a roll.

Contrast that to a WW boat which will have a higher deck and will have the paddler's knees up for support, not to mention a wide, flat hull.  And then there's the difference between a Greenland paddle (basically a skinny stick) and a Euro style WW paddle with big spoons.  If you use Greenland technique with a big Euro spoon you're probably going to be putting way to much force on your shoulder. 

Anyhow, I'm sure everyone gets the point by now:  Greenland rolling techniques are great with Greenland kayaks and paddles on the ocean.  They don't work so well with WW boats and Euro paddles on the river.  Sorry to belabor the point. 

Word Up, Dogie!!
I agree- best video on rolling I've seen yet, even if some of the production values seem cheesy. They break IT ALL down. And that video has helped me better understand those mechanics so I can convey it to others.

Mechanics are key. Different paddlers will always have different styles to a point, but we can't reinvent the wheel, so better to study the proper forms that are tried and true (wish more paddlers would look at the Forward Stroke the same way- lot of slop out there).

@ Chipper: dude, I think you're over reacting. No one is "dissing eskimos". NVC made a harmless comment. None the less, your points are spot on contributions to this discussion- glad you brought them forth.

@ Danimal: haha- I don't hate that clip, I love it! I ussually roll up on the first attempt, but it wasn't hapenin that day! (see link in Tiziak's post). Fortunately I had time on my side and I knew it. The strainer that had been downstream was gone, and I knew I wasn't gonna hit my head (that's the beauty of high water- not likely to hit your head!) So what's the rush? I gotta say tho that when I finally go upright I was exhausted from so much time underwater. Almost got gobbled up by a medium-gnarly pourover!

I don't claim to be any good at kayaking but I really like this guy's videos on technique:
http://www.youtube.com/user/simonwestgarth/videos

Note:  the video could be edited more tightly.  Skip to 6:42 to see a fun sequence at the end.

Edited by doggievacation - 28 Sep 2013 at 7:34am

Has anyone mentioned back posture? I've found that my performance suffers when I slouch, not to mention I get more sore. When I sit upright with my spine straight, torso rotation is easier, more comfortable, and less aggravating. This all also lessens reliance on my arms and diverts better technique to my core automatically: easier to maintain the box.

Alas, sometimes it all goes out the window and the best you can do is keep the elbows down as much as possible and your wrists as low as possible as well, while trying to make sure the active blade isn't behind you. I think we all bend the rules a bit, yes?

Sorry, this thread got more on about just rolling, but of course rolling is only part of the big picture. There are lots of maneuvers where we can tweak our shoulders, elbows, wrists, and back with poor technique.

Another personal tidbit is paddle feather. This affects my inactive wrist, as that wrist has to twist in accordance with the feather to maintain the feel my active blade requires at the moment. For me, a zero degree did work to homogenize my body movements and reduce strain on my wrists. Much less an issue than shoulders, for sure, but none of boating is really about just one part of the entire picture.

Edited by Mr.Grinch - 28 Sep 2013 at 7:31pm

I'm sorry guy's no disrespect im just an instructor geek and bored at work..


 For #1. when we discuss kayaking all of us have a different language, like discribing the roll 500 different ways to accomplish a common goal.  For example when doggievacation talks about stern-weighted kayaks and rolling on the back deck ? what the heck is a stern- weighted kayak ? Im assuming he's talking about play boats having low volume in the stern so when you roll up on your back deck they sink down ?? possibly.. but again I dont know doggies lingo ? the only stern weighted kayak i know about is mine when I'm loaded for a sweet multi day adventure in my creek boat. non the less I can see where if your used to paddling a boat that grabs in the stern and flipping every time you roll up kind of on your back deck you either a. havent addapted 2. dont like these stern weighted kayaks or 3. think ending on your stern is a bad thing in the roll and not safe.  ?? you be the judge... Personally I use the back deck roll all the time and have zero injuries to report running class whatever it doesnt matter...





Edited by FLUID - 29 Sep 2013 at 8:24am