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Travisimo
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  Quote Travisimo Replybullet Topic: Cupdate... HIGH!!!
    Posted: 09 Jul 2012 at 10:25am
The correlation is not correct now, at all...

I went up hoping to either run into someone or solo a bit of it.  No way, No matter who you are... it was raging!  Wonder how long till it'll be "low" again?

That log sucks, that's right in my usual line, anyone know who tied it there and why?  I'll help take it out when the water is low...  I don't care for trip lines attached to wood...












Edited by Travisimo - 09 Jul 2012 at 10:39am
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  Quote James Replybullet Posted: 09 Jul 2012 at 11:01am
Certainly a good flow but it doesn't look much different than other years with the cup that full. I think it still coorelates about the same. I was up there a couple weeks ago and did not see that rope tied up in there, must have been in the last few weeks unless I was day dreaming through there, which is a most certain possibility.
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  Quote Travisimo Replybullet Posted: 09 Jul 2012 at 11:39am
Maybe the picture isn't clear enough.  I'd say the highest part of the cup rock was at least an inch underwater...  The waves never exposed it.

It was neat watching an aluminum can getting worked in the cave at the waterfall.  There was no way to eddy out before it either.  I'd love to see somebody run it at that level, but not me!


Is anybody running the Fall into the Wall when it's "medium-high?"  The namesake of the run is pretty scary if you ask me at these levels.


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  Quote James Replybullet Posted: 09 Jul 2012 at 1:15pm
I think it looks about the same level as the high side of what I have done it at, a long time ago I called it a soiled undies level... I would probably just watch now a days since I am a Kouch Kayaker with chillins to take care of.

Certainly the proper drop would be sending you into the wall pretty fast at that level... again I think I would opt into the sit back and watch category.
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  Quote Travisimo Replybullet Posted: 09 Jul 2012 at 3:40pm
Where is the gauge for this river at, and what else is included?  I'm trying to tell when I'll want to go up there again.

The gauge was reading about 650 when I took those pics and the cup rock was about 1" underwater.  Our correlation says 200-1000 is runnable.  I don't wanna be there with 350cfs more???  I'd pay to watch a video of anyone trying that though!

What is the highest anyone has run the actual waterfall... "Fall in the Wall?" 

I think this run is getting sandbagged heavily and folks aren't running the namesake anymore.  Maybe because its downright scary at "medium" flows... (I call this medium, which is the new low...)



Edited by Travisimo - 09 Jul 2012 at 3:41pm
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  Quote osmelendez Replybullet Posted: 09 Jul 2012 at 4:42pm
I'm glad I'm not the only one that thought FITW was raging at 650cfs. I was like, "damn! People are talking like they run these flows all the time." I took a look at the four consecutive drops (I think it's called the Four Horsemen, I don't really know) and knew that my time to run FITW was not yet. I'll wait until 350-400 as well.
But! If someone wants to run it at 650, then shoot me a personal message. I'll come down with one other film guy and take some footage so you can show people wuz up!
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  Quote PaddleGirl Replybullet Posted: 09 Jul 2012 at 5:38pm
well i find it funny that AW has the max at 500. things are different than here on PP.

another level discrepancy: EF Lewis. AW = 400 - 1000, PP = 900 - 2500
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  Quote Travisimo Replybullet Posted: 09 Jul 2012 at 6:50pm
Here it is fairly high, I did it once quite a bit higher.  I'll try to find a video and post it, sorry this isn't edited at all.  I really need to start editing the hours and hours of footage I have
http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_detailpage&v=-UgOIvKAEoA#t=180s
It's a bit scary at this level, when I did it higher I only did one lap before my adrenaline gland blew out, I photographed the second lap... Check out the rest of the shots in this gallery, but notice the helmet in this shot





Edited by Travisimo - 09 Jul 2012 at 6:54pm
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  Quote chipmaney Replybullet Posted: 09 Jul 2012 at 7:18pm
the wood was tied up last year, for what reason it's unclear. i agree whoever tied it up should remove the rope, otherwise the log will never transport itself downstream and will continue to be a navigation impediment. In addition, I think the log has moved farther downstream than it's original tied position and is more in the thalweg than last year, when it seemed to be contained in the eddy.
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  Quote flipside Replybullet Posted: 09 Jul 2012 at 7:39pm
I have been running this for many years and if you don't know the lines well it can kick your ass.At higher flowes the fearsom foursom is very quick with very few eddy's.But it is a hell of a ride when you hit it right.Most people overlook fishermans I believe it is called on the lower part of the run where I have seen many a good boater get tossed along with myself.
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  Quote BRoss Replybullet Posted: 09 Jul 2012 at 8:02pm
Nice word Chipper, thalweg (thank you wikipedia)! I may have to bust that out at the annual family thanksgiving Fictionary game.
"That boated a lot better than it looked." "It always does until it doesn't."
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  Quote chipmaney Replybullet Posted: 09 Jul 2012 at 8:30pm
Originally posted by BRoss

Nice word Chipper, thalweg (thank you wikipedia)! I may have to bust that out at the annual family thanksgiving Fictionary game.


as long as you don't have any fluvial geomorphologists in the family, it should work well!
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  Quote FLUID Replybullet Posted: 09 Jul 2012 at 9:43pm
Brett and I ran it today and it was super fun !!!   I'll prob be there in the morning instead of robe (work obligations...Boo)  Sooooo if anyone wants to come on up and get in there with me would be good to have some company...  maybe we could cut that log out. it won't be hard I think were just to lazy to get out when were there and deal with it. as it sits now its not in play unless you had a really bad line off number #2 
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  Quote osmelendez Replybullet Posted: 09 Jul 2012 at 9:46pm
wow! "thalweg" actually is a word, and it's probably one that all kayakers should know. can't wait to use this one with some of my friend and say it like I really mean it without flinching, like everybody should know what thalweg is. thanks.
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  Quote Travisimo Replybullet Posted: 10 Jul 2012 at 12:12am
Did you "fall into the wall?"

I'd love to see video of someone running the falls at this level.
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  Quote JayB Replybullet Posted: 10 Jul 2012 at 7:47am
Hey Travisimo:

Sounds like you were talking about the online gauge verus the cup-rock?

If it's the online gauge - it's way downstream. When it's this late in the season, it's been dry, and all of the snow in the lower drainages that feed into the SF is gone - the levels at FITW are much higher than the online gauge would suggest. Conversely - early in the season the flow at FITW can be much lower than the online gauge is indicating since the water in the source lake basin is still locked in the snowpack, even though the lower drainages are starting to cut loose (or it's raining, or both).
-Jay
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  Quote Travisimo Replybullet Posted: 10 Jul 2012 at 9:49am
Thanks!  That's what I suspected.  I know I'm spoiled by having gauges on most of the runs I do...

This is the second time I've headed up thinking it would be medium and found it gnar...  I did run part of the run below Franklin (after the falls) and that was fun too.  There's a good little class 3-4 from the campground to a bit past the bridge.

I'd still like to know if anyone is running the actual falls.  I think it's a bit wrong to call a level "medium" if even the gnar boaters aren't running "Fall in the wall."

Maybe if we call it fearsome foursome to green room...  As Eric pointed out, we used to run rootball too, but it's downright terrifying at the new "medium."

I'm afraid we're gonna scare new boaters away from this awesome run.  People are obviously going up there and being terrified thinking these are normal flows.  We've had a lot of snow and little melt, so I look forward to some awesome laps later than usual on FITW.  There is still some snow in the forest on the walk up there!!!

It's rated as a class IV-V it's a solid V right now...  Class 6 if you include rootball...  Anyone that goes up there should scout rootball and the drop after.  Wow, just wow.  I can just imagine pulling out of the eddy at this level and what would follow


Edited by Travisimo - 10 Jul 2012 at 9:54am
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  Quote kevinh Replybullet Posted: 10 Jul 2012 at 12:06pm

update! right now the cup is full and dropping.... ill try and post a picture

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  Quote jP Replybullet Posted: 10 Jul 2012 at 1:29pm
First off, thanks Chipper, because that word should be used by more paddlers- the Thalweg is basicly the main trunk of the river's current.

Second, that tied up wood is lame. Someone went in and started that job, but didn't finish it. you're probably right in that it has likely slid more out into the current. Its in a bad spot, and the rope can only make it more of a hazard.


Originally posted by PaddleGirl

well i find it funny that AW has the max at 500. things are different than here on PP.

another level discrepancy: EF Lewis. AW = 400 - 1000, PP = 900 - 2500


Well, as far as this goes, what do you find funny about it? I find it "funny" that you didn't weigh in on which side of the coin should be face up.

Either a) the high water estimates should be accepted as the prevailing beta or
b) the lower recommended flows should be considered more aligned with the paddling community's sensibilities
Or how about c) American Whitewater should be considered to be the more authoritative resource
Or maybe d) Professor Paddle is a more hands on user generated resource that generally remains up to date...

Oh wait:
I'm going to choose e) These numeric values are all highly subjective. And I, as a free thinking individual, value all of the resources I have available to me. I understand that merely clicking on a web link and recieving a numeric value is by itself an absurd means of determining whether or not a section of river or creek contains the suitable amount of water for me based on my skill level, sensibilities, fitness level, ect. That for any guage reading to effectively convey any meaningful information to me whatsoever, it is entirely encumbant upon myself to learn and understand a broader tapestry of details including but not limited to the location of the guage, the current whether positions relative to the actual averages for that calendar day or week, the season(s) and how they influence. runoff, ect. Furthermore, I would prefer to have multiple resources that differ in their beta so I can better figure it out for myself, rather than several resources that all parrot one another. It is up to me and me only to know myself in this sport, know my local runs of interest, and know my resources and how to interpret them.

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  Quote jP Replybullet Posted: 10 Jul 2012 at 1:37pm
Originally posted by JayB

the online gauge verus the cup-rock: If it's the online gauge - it's way downstream. When it's this late in the season, it's been dry, and all of the snow in the lower drainages that feed into the SF is gone - the levels at FITW are much higher than the online gauge would suggest. Conversely - early in the season the flow at FITW can be much lower than the online gauge is indicating since the water in the source lake basin is still locked in the snowpack, even though the lower drainages are starting to cut loose (or it's raining, or both).


There you have it. Very well encapsulated, Jay. I just don't ever bother with the online guage. But if you want to glean anything from the online guage, you need at least a rudimentary understanding of it like the way Jay just spelled it out, and even then you will be guessing a lot.
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  Quote not-very-clever Replybullet Posted: 10 Jul 2012 at 1:56pm
Thalweg is german.  Thal meaning valley, and weg meaning way.

it is actually pronounced Tall- Veg with a german accent of course.

it has been adopted into an english as "a geography and fluvial geomorphology term that signifies the deepest continuous inline within a valley or watercourse system."
reference-wiki

  my first time hearing the word and i was curious of the etymology. PP is not just about ranting and raving, sometimes it is outright educational


Edited by not-very-clever - 10 Jul 2012 at 2:02pm
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  Quote jP Replybullet Posted: 10 Jul 2012 at 1:58pm
Originally posted by Travisimo


I'm afraid we're gonna scare new boaters away from this awesome run.  People are obviously going up there and being terrified thinking these are normal flows. 



Well, now we need to come back down to reason.
"New" boaters should not be on that run to begin with. In any way shape or form, high flows, low flows, whatever. It is not the most difficult steep creek in the world, but it is still a place for advanced kayaking technique. Maybe not on the level of what "expert technique" means today in 2012, but still, FITW is not a run for "new" boaters.

I know people progress quick these days, but those who skip class, pardon the pun, end up in class V with janky technique and tons of bad habits. Maybe we all have our share, but if you are going up to run FITW you shoukd be able to decide for yourself after walking the whole thing it is easy to scout. If you don't know well enough to come back when its flowing at a volume to your liking, what difference does it make what someone else says is "normal"?

Look, this is the 21st century now. Our sport has progressed. Lots of advanced to expert paddlers like more push with yheir steeps these days. I passed the torch. Let these generations kick the ball down the court a bit.

Me? Low water annoys me and high water scares me. I'm a medium guy. I like to run my favorite runs that challenge me at medium to medium high flows.

I watched some kid drop Granite Falls recently at 5.8'. Stout flows for that seldom run rapid. If you drop into that, you'd better be prepared for an ass kicking even if you aren't looking for one. He got his at the bottom, and I was left with the impression that he didn't adequately scout the 3 or 4 stout drops below the falls. Nice guy, and did fine later on Robe, but I was surprised he didn't seem to know what he was signing up for. But hey, maybe he did and thats why he signed up. Not my style.
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  Quote jP Replybullet Posted: 10 Jul 2012 at 2:18pm
Now, if its a matter of inaccurate beta, then that is possibly a topic that the community (PP) should discuss.

If it ever becomes apparent that someone has inserted their min-max range and it has somehow evaded the moderaters who monitor the beta here, you need to bring it up. So really I should ammend my legalese above to include that we all should try to catch descrepencies on our rivers pages if they are in fact false.

Tough to do with flow ranges in a way because they are subjective. But then again I can tell you that for the East Fork Lewis run,
400-1000 is WAY more skewed toward ONLY covering the low end range than 900-2500 is skewed toward a high end range. 900-2500 better spans the middle range, in my opinion.

Whatever our flow ranges are listed as, the RECOMMENDED level is just that. Therefore it should try to reflect what the majority of the community considers average, including an average runnable low, and an average runnable high. That' s why the bare bones low flow SHOULD NOT be included in the recommended range the same as the Scary High Gnar flow shouldn't. That's why the Sky's low end RECOMMENDED flow should NOT be 500. 500 should be outside the bracket.

In another example, Robe is only routinely run by a mixed bag of 20-40 individuals, maybe (hard to say). But only a few of them are out running it at, say, 7'.

What I'm saying is the average paddler should be able to halfway trust those numbers highlighted in green. Boaters who love scraping down sh*t should accept the fact that the numbers they like are coded yellow, while the Sam Graftons of the world can get all stoked when they see the guage page lit up in blue.

Its really pretty simple, folks.
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  Quote PaddleGirl Replybullet Posted: 10 Jul 2012 at 2:29pm
Originally posted by jP



Originally posted by PaddleGirl

well i find it funny that AW has the max at 500. things are different than here on PP.

another level discrepancy: EF Lewis. AW = 400 - 1000, PP = 900 - 2500


Well, as far as this goes, what do you find funny about it? I find it "funny" that you didn't weigh in on which side of the coin should be face up.

Either a) the high water estimates should be accepted as the prevailing beta or
b) the lower recommended flows should be considered more aligned with the paddling community's sensibilities
Or how about c) American Whitewater should be considered to be the more authoritative resource
Or maybe d) Professor Paddle is a more hands on user generated resource that generally remains up to date...

Oh wait:
I'm going to choose e) These numeric values are all highly subjective. And I, as a free thinking individual, value all of the resources I have available to me. I understand that merely clicking on a web link and recieving a numeric value is by itself an absurd means of determining whether or not a section of river or creek contains the suitable amount of water for me based on my skill level, sensibilities, fitness level, ect. That for any guage reading to effectively convey any meaningful information to me whatsoever, it is entirely encumbant upon myself to learn and understand a broader tapestry of details including but not limited to the location of the guage, the current whether positions relative to the actual averages for that calendar day or week, the season(s) and how they influence. runoff, ect. Furthermore, I would prefer to have multiple resources that differ in their beta so I can better figure it out for myself, rather than several resources that all parrot one another. It is up to me and me only to know myself in this sport, know my local runs of interest, and know my resources and how to interpret them.

 
I see it as a matter of a difference of opinion, not that one is better than the other, or that one source is or should be more authoritative for whatever reason. 
 
it's a pretty big difference when there is only a small bit of overlap like on the EF Lewis.  which is "funny" to me, and I'll admit that is a very poor choice of a word. words aren't and never have been my forte. 
 
i agree that is nice to get differing opinions in beta, and none of that is exactly a substitute for seeing it for myself and making my own decisions.  pretty much agree with everything you say in your post, even though it rubbed me the wrong way the first time i read it.
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  Quote JayB Replybullet Posted: 10 Jul 2012 at 3:03pm
Originally posted by Travisimo

Thanks!  That's what I suspected.  I know I'm spoiled by having gauges on most of the runs I do...

This is the second time I've headed up thinking it would be medium and found it gnar...  I did run part of the run below Franklin (after the falls) and that was fun too.  There's a good little class 3-4 from the campground to a bit past the bridge.

I'd still like to know if anyone is running the actual falls.  I think it's a bit wrong to call a level "medium" if even the gnar boaters aren't running "Fall in the wall."

Maybe if we call it fearsome foursome to green room...  As Eric pointed out, we used to run rootball too, but it's downright terrifying at the new "medium."

I'm afraid we're gonna scare new boaters away from this awesome run.  People are obviously going up there and being terrified thinking these are normal flows.  We've had a lot of snow and little melt, so I look forward to some awesome laps later than usual on FITW.  There is still some snow in the forest on the walk up there!!!

It's rated as a class IV-V it's a solid V right now...  Class 6 if you include rootball...  Anyone that goes up there should scout rootball and the drop after.  Wow, just wow.  I can just imagine pulling out of the eddy at this level and what would follow
Totally agree with you - on that one. 
 
There's an annual debate over what constitutes low, medium, and high and in the end it always ends up like debating whether orange is a better color than blue, but at the very least we should update the run description with something that says "HEY- DON'T TRUST THE ONLINE GAUGE CUZ IT'S WAY DOWNSTREAM FROM THE RUN - USE THE CUP GAUGE!" and then refer the reader to the gauge rock photo in the "features" column. Adding something that says "This run is a full-tilt V at high water levels and above" would probably also be worth adding. 
 
 
My personal calibration for low, medium, and high runs about an inch lower than the levels shown in the photos - but I think that the levels shown in the photos are pretty close to the consensus that emerges when the ELF jockeys and the high-water-gnar lobby chime in and debate levels.
-Jay
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