Professor Paddle: is my paddle too small? vanlinelogistics.com Seattle Washington (WA) Warehousing & Order Fulfillment vanlinelogistics.com Seattle Washington (WA) Warehousing & Order Fulfillment vanlinelogistics.com Seattle Washington (WA) Commercial Relocation vanlinelogistics.com Warehousing & Order Fulfillment
Professor Paddle Professor Paddle
  RegisterRegister  LoginLogin
Home Calendar Forum FSBO Gallery PPages Reviews Rivers Links
  Active TopicsActive Topics  Display List of Forum MembersMemberlist  Search The ForumSearch
Whitewater Forum
 Professor Paddle : General : Whitewater Forum
Message Icon Topic: is my paddle too small? Post Reply Post New Topic
Author Message
thad2000
Tricky Woo
Tricky Woo
Avatar

Joined: 20 Jul 2011
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 225
  Quote thad2000 Replybullet Topic: is my paddle too small?
    Posted: 05 Mar 2012 at 5:07am
New to paddling, and recently got a new one. It's lighter with less feather... but when I use it I feel as if I'm flapping my arms in the air to fly. Could that be psychosomatic? If it is smaller, it's probably safer on my shoulders... but it just doesn't feel like it's "grabbing" the water. How big is too big? Seems to get me where I need to go... but I feel as if I could put a great deal more force into my paddle if it would just dig in more. Just thought I'd hear what opinions where out there on paddle envy..
why not!
IP IP Logged Send Private Message Send Private Message
James
Admin
Admin
Avatar
Sum Dum Guy

Joined: 31 Dec 2004
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 3595
  Quote James Replybullet Posted: 05 Mar 2012 at 7:46am
It could be too small. But the amount of "Dig" or "Purchase" is overrated compared to technique. But to stay on subject I am 6'3" and used 197cm for a long time then moved up to 101cm. Depends on your body height in the torso, length of arms and paddling style. What size is yours?
IP IP Logged Send Private Message Send Private Message
dave
Master Poster
Master Poster
Avatar
D4

Joined: 29 Apr 2005
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 4226
  Quote dave Replybullet Posted: 05 Mar 2012 at 9:20am
Complex and age old question. I like big blades for ww and sea, but you can both exhaust and hurt yourself easier with fat blades if you dont use proper technique. Lenght, that is all up to your paddling style wether its high angle ( shorter paddle) or low angle( longer paddle). Werner has an online resource for new paddlers to select blade and lenght and its a good starting point.
Nomad
IP IP Logged Send Private Message
ru-tang
Viener Schnitzel
Viener Schnitzel


Joined: 06 Sep 2011
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 10
  Quote ru-tang Replybullet Posted: 05 Mar 2012 at 10:38am
To get a different perspective, read this essay written by Jim Snyder

http://www.rivrstyx.com/html/trik_talk_.html

He is a proponent of smaller paddle blades, and to compensate for 'lack of catch' he adjusts the length.  Also by running smaller blades, you can have a faster stroke rate.   I am a big fan of this type of paddle, it is extremely friendly on your shoulders, and I am not as sore by the end of the day. 

Jim uses a super long paddle (220cm) with tiny blades for paddling his ducky (or as they call them in the PNW, Inflatable Kayaks).  Having little experience in this realm, I have noticed the few IKs that I have paddled, the paddles were always too short, and I had to reach from side to side to take each stroke.

If your paddle is feeling too short, it probably is.  Jim's paddles are expensive, but they will out-last ten Werners. 
IP IP Logged Send Private Message
dave
Master Poster
Master Poster
Avatar
D4

Joined: 29 Apr 2005
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 4226
  Quote dave Replybullet Posted: 05 Mar 2012 at 11:54am
The only way your going to wear out a Werner is if you smash it into the rocks or drive over it with your car...just saying...all paddles will last a long time if you take care of them.
Nomad
IP IP Logged Send Private Message
Jed Hawkes
Rio Banditos
Rio Banditos
Avatar

Joined: 24 Aug 2008
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 814
  Quote Jed Hawkes Replybullet Posted: 05 Mar 2012 at 6:47pm
The advantage to a smaller blade is that it makes it easier to "turn up the RPM's" as I say. When you really need to make a move and get somewhere I find it's better to make as many strokes as possible. The only time I feel it would be nicer to have a big blade is when your really looking to crank on a boof stroke.

The faster RPM will be better for your joints, and is likely faster. If you compare most slalom or racing blades to whitewater blades you'll find that the slalom blades are much smaller. And if anyone knows anything about paddle effectiveness, it's slalom boaters.

Just a thought.
The line will become apparent
978-273-7723
IP IP Logged Send Private Message
H2Ohta
McNasty
McNasty
Avatar

Joined: 12 Dec 2006
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 411
  Quote H2Ohta Replybullet Posted: 05 Mar 2012 at 7:29pm
It's personal preference for sure. You might be feeling that by reducing your feather that you are not rotating your torso as much. I have found that when paddling a low angle-0 feather that it promotes more arm paddling than full torso rotation, for me at least. Try out different blades and lengths.
I like a longer paddle. I like the leverage and extra power, especially in my sweep and boof strokes. I am 5'7" and paddle with a 197cm Bent. Powerhouse 30 deg.
H2Ohta
IP IP Logged Send Private Message Send Private Message
Jed Hawkes
Rio Banditos
Rio Banditos
Avatar

Joined: 24 Aug 2008
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 814
  Quote Jed Hawkes Replybullet Posted: 05 Mar 2012 at 9:23pm
What paddle did you have before, and what do you have now? Because different blade shapes, straight/bent shafts, and lengths will change the way it feels in the water.

Edited by Jed Hawkes - 05 Mar 2012 at 9:24pm
The line will become apparent
978-273-7723
IP IP Logged Send Private Message
dave
Master Poster
Master Poster
Avatar
D4

Joined: 29 Apr 2005
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 4226
  Quote dave Replybullet Posted: 05 Mar 2012 at 9:50pm
It all depends on what your doing. If your racing, then you may need a race blade, boofing, big blade, relaxing, whatever is comfortable.
Nomad
IP IP Logged Send Private Message
ENDO
Splat Wheeler
Splat Wheeler


Joined: 06 Jun 2010
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 146
  Quote ENDO Replybullet Posted: 05 Mar 2012 at 10:35pm
get whats the most comfortable. I paddled large and small blades. no real difference, just a slight difference in stroke timing and technique. but you can compensate quick.
IP IP Logged Send Private Message Send Private Message
James
Admin
Admin
Avatar
Sum Dum Guy

Joined: 31 Dec 2004
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 3595
  Quote James Replybullet Posted: 06 Mar 2012 at 8:39am
One significant benefit of the carbon blade is durability whilst digging holes. I find that when I need to take a dump it stands up really well to scraping a little hasty hole, I don't think a wooden blade would prepare near as many defecation stations. Sometimes I also make sandwiches on my paddle blades using it like a table, but size should not matter for that operation unless your trying to make a party sub for the whole group. Oh and if you dig a dung hole, be sure to paddle a few rapids before you make the sandwiches just for sanitation purposes.
IP IP Logged Send Private Message Send Private Message
NateW
McNasty
McNasty


Joined: 06 Jun 2011
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 313
  Quote NateW Replybullet Posted: 06 Mar 2012 at 8:44am
Originally posted by James

One significant benefit of the carbon blade is durability whilst digging holes. I find that when I need to take a dump it stands up really well to scraping a little hasty hole, I don't think a wooden blade would prepare near as many defecation stations. Sometimes I also make sandwiches on my paddle blades using it like a table, but size should not matter for that operation unless your trying to make a party sub for the whole group. Oh and if you dig a dung hole, be sure to paddle a few rapids before you make the sandwiches just for sanitation purposes.



AHAH
IP IP Logged Send Private Message
dave
Master Poster
Master Poster
Avatar
D4

Joined: 29 Apr 2005
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 4226
  Quote dave Replybullet Posted: 06 Mar 2012 at 1:04pm
I like getting paddled with a big blade, and I like sandwicthes!
Nomad
IP IP Logged Send Private Message
thad2000
Tricky Woo
Tricky Woo
Avatar

Joined: 20 Jul 2011
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 225
  Quote thad2000 Replybullet Posted: 06 Mar 2012 at 3:55pm
Thanks for all the input. I'm 5' 6" and I actually thought 194cm might be long. My blades are Blade Size: 7.75" x 18". Seeing some of the comments I might be able to go longer. I don't have the specs on my old paddles. I think If I need to make a lunch I'll have to get a bigger boat (now carrying a through rope threatons my trim).. and then I can just use the bottom of the boat. (lol) anyway, great comments. I'll continue using this until I find I'm not getting where I need to fast enough. It was interesting to hear the slalom guys use smaller blades. I'll also pay close attention to my technique. I try and keep my arms stationary using my core muscles, rotating almost robotically.. so going through a great deal of strokes seems like it's a great deal of movement. I didn't realize lack of feather might promote poor technique. For now, I like the lack of offset.
why not!
IP IP Logged Send Private Message Send Private Message
Fry1982
Paddler
Paddler
Avatar

Joined: 12 Nov 2011
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 50
  Quote Fry1982 Replybullet Posted: 06 Mar 2012 at 4:05pm
I use a 200 cm AT Eddy, 12 degree offset. I also have a much nicer AT2 Superduty which is 197 cm with 30 degree offset that I never use because I simply find it too short and prefer the 12 degree offset. Anybody want to buy a paddle? :) I'm 6'2".

I do advise not using a Select paddle, I had one that broke after about a month of use right where your hand grips, and the rep refused to believe it wasn't from being chalked. I now use it (repaired) as my main breakdown.
IP IP Logged Send Private Message Send Private Message
dave
Master Poster
Master Poster
Avatar
D4

Joined: 29 Apr 2005
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 4226
  Quote dave Replybullet Posted: 06 Mar 2012 at 6:14pm
I use a 196 Werner Powerhouse with a custom 15 deg angle. After many paddles and almost 23 years on WW, I find 15deg is best for my worn out wrists and shoulders. It was almost like meeting God when I got that paddle...
My sea kayak paddle is adjustable in 5 deg increments and I think it is a 205 Corevekian Werner carbon fiber. It is almost the same paddle as my WW paddle and after much reasearch and talk, most recomend that you have a sea kayak paddle that resembles what you WW with. This way I am using a similar paddle most of the time and dont have to adjust when I switch sports. I use the 15 deg angle when sea kayaking also.
My wrist will crackle when I use 30deg or more, so I am pretty much stuck with 15 or less unless I want to be in much pain...
I use complete torso rotation and work very hard at good paddle technique too. It is a constant battle to work on your technique and no one can really master it, even the masters will aggree to this...it is a constant batttle to maintain technique!

Edited by dave - 06 Mar 2012 at 6:16pm
Nomad
IP IP Logged Send Private Message
Mr.Grinch
Big Boofer
Big Boofer


Joined: 03 Aug 2011
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 624
  Quote Mr.Grinch Replybullet Posted: 06 Mar 2012 at 7:14pm
The technique I see least utilized is forward strokes using the core muscles. Most people "bicycle" with their arms.

I use a relatively short Werner Powerhouse because I like the feel, and the response. I do currently have a shoulder issue, but it came from a four hour surf (ocean surf, on a surfboard, lots of over head arm swinging) that was preceded by a day of paddling. I have had the paddle for a while, but have been padding a lot before and after I got it (my muscles and technique were tuned and up for the extra stress). As has been mentioned, proper technique is critical, and while I'm not perfect I can say that my soreness from large blades is felt in my abdominal muscles, especially when I play hard (I know the Powerhouse isn't a play paddle, but I was used to the feel vs. down-turned blades).

I feel the difference with smaller blades, now. I've switched paddles a few times with people and can certainly notice how the blade ends up in a different location than I'm expecting, but that is the key: familiarity. Nothin wrong with how the different blade area works.

Another point to consider is blade stiffness. Stiffer blades are faster to give response but are tougher on the shoulder. Flex, or whip as it has been called in the past, spreads out the energy, absorbing some initially (reducing strain on the paddler), and releasing it after the paddler has finished the stroke (giving a last kick when you're not supplying much energy).

I was taught that your most useful energy application during forward and standard sweep strokes was when your body was unwinding to a neutral position. Past that, you're pulling water up in a forward stroke as you go past your hips. You're also countering spin energy when the more you recover from rotation, so sweeping should be treated the same (as well as actually drawing an arc, far from the boat, not just a little to the side from normal. After all, the more parallel your blade becomes to the boat during your sweep, the more like a forward stroke it essentially becomes). Of course, the more perpendicular it begins, the more effective it is as well. I feel a bigger blade works for me in this sense, as I have grown as a paddler to understand what I'm doing, what my intent is, and how the paddle blade feels in the water.

I wonder about the higher stroke rate being easier on the body, but please, I'm not calling you guys out. With proper technique, is either bad? If, for the sake of numbers, a large blade and a small blade take 100 and 125 strokes, respectively, to reach a destination, is the lack of stress on one stroke uprooted by the extra strokes needed? Kinda like the length ratio. Levers teach us about forces applied over rotational distance, and it still takes certain amounts of torque to do certain amounts of work. Longer the lever, the less mass at the end, but the same force applied: balanced equation. Just a few questions, no accusations or fight starting intended, I admit I don't know.

Anyway, I'm a fan of large blades in whitewater; fewer strokes; power and intention. I like more trim blades for longer distances, though, and that is regardless of the water medium. Doesn't mean I'd do a week long trip with a toothpick, but havin spent many trips up in Canada that were over a week (up to nineteen days), we brought both slim paddles and short fatties (the first for lakes, second for rivers). That might have been in canoes, true, but the lesson was the same for me.

Good thing I'm not talking, someone would have told me to shut up a long time ago! :)
IP IP Logged Send Private Message
JoesKayak
Rio Banditos
Rio Banditos
Avatar

Joined: 07 Nov 2006
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 1245
  Quote JoesKayak Replybullet Posted: 06 Mar 2012 at 8:37pm
This informative video will help you determine if your paddle is too big.


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JBV9Hdroh70




Edited by JoesKayak - 06 Mar 2012 at 8:41pm
IP IP Logged Send Private Message Send Private Message
dave
Master Poster
Master Poster
Avatar
D4

Joined: 29 Apr 2005
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 4226
  Quote dave Replybullet Posted: 06 Mar 2012 at 9:54pm
Um, ok... There is a paddle that is called the big spoon that some use to race and seakayak with. I tried one once and talk about a big digging blade! Not sure I could get used to the big spoon though, very hard to brace with.
Nomad
IP IP Logged Send Private Message
Courtney
Big Boofer
Big Boofer
Avatar
Whitewater,sea kayaking, snowboarding, backpacking.

Joined: 22 Mar 2005
Location: United States
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 662
  Quote Courtney Replybullet Posted: 07 Mar 2012 at 6:33am
I'm also 5'6" and I use a 191cm with a 30 degree offset.  The general recommended lengths for your height are 191 to 197.  If your paddle feels too short then go up a notch.  You'll find that 3cm's will make a lot of difference in the feel of the paddle.
 
Courtney
IP IP Logged Send Private Message Send Private Message
Post Reply Post New Topic
Printable version Printable version

Forum Jump
You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot create polls in this forum
You cannot vote in polls in this forum