Professor Paddle: Any opinions on Skirtworks Sprayskirts.
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chuckj
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  Quote chuckj Replybullet Topic: Any opinions on Skirtworks Sprayskirts.
    Posted: 17 Feb 2012 at 9:15am
Am in the market for a new WW skirt. Any opinions?
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dave
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  Quote dave Replybullet Posted: 17 Feb 2012 at 9:18am
Snapdragon all the way. Plus its a local company.
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BRoss
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  Quote BRoss Replybullet Posted: 17 Feb 2012 at 9:31am
I LOVE my Skirtworks skirt. It's basically synonymous with Mountain Surf, which is why I got one. I had a Mountain Surf skirt for 6 years, loved it, and didn't want to try anything else. Picked mine up from Alder Creek in Portland.
"That boated a lot better than it looked." "It always does until it doesn't."
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idaho_h2o
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  Quote idaho_h2o Replybullet Posted: 17 Feb 2012 at 9:46am
I got one this fall and haven't used it a ton but I am impressed with the quality. Same thoughts as BRoss, basically the same as Mountain Surf but easier to get. The rand is totally dry on my Villain. Skirtsworks will also customize the size and setback on your skirt for no charge.

As for Snapdragon, they do make a durable skirt but I have yet to see one that was totally dry.
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James
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  Quote James Replybullet Posted: 17 Feb 2012 at 10:22am
I always thought that Mountain Surf Skirts were cutting edge with that tear off grap loop design. Pretty unique having a grab loop that tears off when you use it, I always figured it would become a more elite product for the "core" boaters that don't need grab loops, needless to say, when it never took off I was pretty surprised. I am guessing they sold the idea to a bigger company that is just waiting for the right time when they are going to start selling skirts without the grap loop completely, it would of course be more expensive since it is the expert model.
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BRoss
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  Quote BRoss Replybullet Posted: 17 Feb 2012 at 10:38am
The way I heard it was that John Mason split from the rest of the employees at Mountain Surf in WV and they started Skirtworks basically making the same product. I guess he's back up and running in Canada.

James, sounds like you have a story there! what happened?
"That boated a lot better than it looked." "It always does until it doesn't."
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James
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  Quote James Replybullet Posted: 17 Feb 2012 at 11:09am
Oh when I started boating in 2005 my first kayak was a piece O junk off Ebay and they gave me a new skirt and pfd with it. I bought a paddle at PWS and went down to teach my self how to roll in Lake Washington... After the first day I was super stoked on the whole sport and decided I had better get to a river ASAP, so I met up with some lifeguards I used to party with that rafted because I did not know a single kayaker. (They were really just party/drunks - like 2 trips a year both centered around kegs and weed) but that was my influence getting started so I met up with them to paddle and after my first ever river trip (Tieton) I was getting out of the kayak and I went to pull off my skirt and Rip off came the grap loop. It was a new looking skirt too, no stains, scrapes etc.. We were still going to run the river the next day so I just cut a slit into it and made a grab loop with duct tape... Worked ok but was pretty wet... When I got back I bought a new skirt and told the story to the guys there, they chuckled, I chuckled and we went our merry ways. My next river trip was on the N.F. Sky with some WKC folks and one of them had a Mountain Surf Skirt grap loop rip right off too, a while later a big batch of skirts were re-called because the thread used for the grap loops dissolved when exposed to water and UV... probably a bad combonation for the material selection on a grab loop....

Anyways always something that stood in the back of my mind as a funny kind of thing. I am sure the company increased QA and made better stuff in the future but I never felt the need for anything but a Snapdragon after that. I use a blisstick skirt that is kinda cool now and then but it is falling apart too, and it did not last near as long as my snap dragons have.

That's the story, nothing epic just a funny beginners exposure to gear failure.
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jP
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  Quote jP Replybullet Posted: 17 Feb 2012 at 3:53pm
That is a funny story. The thing with small businesses who manufacture stuff is all it takes is to get a few details out of whack and pretty soon QC can go right out the window. You wouldn't think there's any kind of excuse for it, but it seems to happen a lot.

Funny though- I had a Mountain Surf skirt from 1995 that lasted really well until I got out on my very first Professor Paddle trip that I joined up for using the "trip planner" ten years later in 2005. You were on that trip, James, on the Middle Middle. So was D4, Rick, probably Chucky Fresh, maybe D1. My skirt seemed fine earlier in the season, but on that trip, at the put in, it leaked profusely.

What is the common theme here, I wonder?


All skirt failures were Mountain Surf Skirts, and James was present for each skirt failure. Therefore, it is logical to conclude that James caused these skirts to fail.


Edited by jP - 17 Feb 2012 at 3:56pm
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jP
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  Quote jP Replybullet Posted: 17 Feb 2012 at 3:57pm
(At least that's probably what "Mr. Simple Green" would say)
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jP
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  Quote jP Replybullet Posted: 17 Feb 2012 at 4:04pm
Ok ok- the truth is that sometime inbetween uses (I only got about 20 days on the river that year), some varmit must've chewed some sizeable holes in my skirt. I was paddling down the Middle Middle and couldn't figure out why I was taking on so much water!

During a safety meeting where I was reassured of the safety protocols employed by this strange new group of boaters (not so strange at all, it would turn out), I discovered the freshly chewed holes: a small hole or two on the deck, and a sizeable hole right where the tunnel is glued/taped to the deck.

I tried to stuff some of the PNW's generous moss into the holes, with little effect.

But my vintage Mountain Surf did last a good 10 years, even if the last three saw fewer days on the water.
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dave
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  Quote dave Replybullet Posted: 17 Feb 2012 at 4:10pm
I wouldnt buy anything else but the best, Snapdragon! All others, from what i jave seen, just dont stand up to them. Plus, my snapdragons are always dry. Even when im plAyboating hard, i get out and the skirt is dry inside. I have used them for all my kayaks, including sea, and have no problems in the past 23 years.
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jP
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  Quote jP Replybullet Posted: 17 Feb 2012 at 4:10pm
I've only heard good stuff about Skirtworks though. And they are built in a really good place that incubated most of the whitewater technology we benefit from today. (I think they are still built in Friendsville MD)
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jP
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  Quote jP Replybullet Posted: 17 Feb 2012 at 4:19pm
Dave, I agree: Snapdragons are good solid built skirts.

They are not, however, the end all be all of skirts. Your loyalty is certainly justified, but, there's also a big wide world out there. Stop acting all opionated like jP. I mean, I'm flattered n all, maybe I'll even hand you a bottle of Arrogant Bastard next time I see ya, but...

If you are squirtboating, Skirtworks are generally considered the #1 choice. And PPeeps say they are dry. To each their own. Like a lot of things, preference does come into play. Some skirts are made better than others, but unless you've tried a wide variety of what's out there you can't unequivicobbly (uh- that word is above my pay grade) state that one is the absolute best.
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BIGWATER
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  Quote BIGWATER Replybullet Posted: 17 Feb 2012 at 5:02pm

honesyly i dont care about brand, i have tryed a bunch .... for me its all about the rand and the bar

any snapdragon skirt i ever had was made with a shock cord(bunge) rand ,   these do not seal well on the the boat... say what you will but if you spend half the day in a bow stall your boat is gona leak a TON.... i got a skirtworks skirt and it has a rubber rand that is more like a gasket that seals to the boat , far less water gets in
 
second is the implosion bar, the skirtworks skirt that i got does not have a bar and it sucks, i use an inflated thing to keep my skirt form going to my thighs when in a bow stall
 
does any company make a skirt with rubber rand AND and implosion bar ?   if so ill buy it ASAP
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  Quote BIGWATER Replybullet Posted: 17 Feb 2012 at 5:17pm
or what about a over-thruster type plate built into the skirt ?   something to stiffen the skirt over a wider area then just a bar
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dave
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  Quote dave Replybullet Posted: 17 Feb 2012 at 5:40pm
Well, I dont squirt boat, but have squirted in a boat!
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jP
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  Quote jP Replybullet Posted: 17 Feb 2012 at 6:15pm
Originally posted by dave

Well, I dont squirt boat, but have squirted in a boat!


No you haven't- you're just mis using the term like all the creekboaters have been doing for a decade and a half or more. Sorry Dave, nothing personal. You know I just got an axe to grind about all this trivial sh*t.

A stern ender or tail stand is what most people mean when they say "stern squirt".

But a true stern squirt involves a spiral, cork screwing, slicing action only possible in a squirt boat, a slalom boat, or some of the older slicier playboats (EZ, Centrifuge, ect.). Or you can do them accidently in a Diablo on Robe and similar places where the volume of the river overcomes the volume of the boat. Creekboats are too cork like to engage in that slicing motion. Modern playboats can do weakly sluffed out versions, I suppose, its more of a facsimile of the real thing. So, I guess you may have done some in your playboat, Dave, but its really not the same. Again, not trying to put you down, but I honestly was there at the time and place of Squirt Boating's origin. I watched that portion of our sport develope personally. Knew the people who are credited with its invention. So I am absolutely correct about this. Not like it matters that much, but it is whitewater, and this is a whitewater forum. Just taking the opportunity to clear up the distinction.

The key distinction being the slicing action of the stern and some measure of verticality as a result of the deck being loaded up in the current. That's where the wafer thin deck /hull of a squirt boat, combined with the very flat surface area and the length of the boat truly do behave differently than any modern playboat.

Yeah Chris, I'd like a sticky rand combined with a better implosion bar also.

Edited by jP - 17 Feb 2012 at 6:36pm
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ru-tang
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  Quote ru-tang Replybullet Posted: 17 Feb 2012 at 9:04pm
just to stoke JP's fire

-you are half correct on the terminology of stern squirting.  The true stern squirt does not come from the currents loading up on the stern.  In true squirting fashion, the squirt comes from an inverse bernoulli effect of high pressures being generated on the deck of the boat and lower pressures developing under the hull. 

A better way to think about it, is that the hull is actually pulling the stern into its low pressure zone, rather than it being pushed from the deck.

What happens in most creek boats is more of a stern ender, being pushed down from the deck. 

and always remember- charc in = charc out
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