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up4air
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  Quote up4air Replybullet Topic: Kayakers held, threatened in Guatemala
    Posted: 30 Jan 2012 at 2:28pm
Blog entry

Although the headline says 'riverboarders' from his pics on facebook there were at least three other vehicles each with 4-6 kayaks strapped onto their roof. I'd be surprised if someone on here didn't know others in this group.

Scary episode. Perhaps political factors need to be added to the classification of a whitewater run (for instance: Class 6 take-out. Without a guard, you will be robbed, at best, kidnapped at worst.). This same author, while living in Dominical, has been robbed at the Pacuare takeout. No, they don't bother the commercial groups, just the private vehicles.
More water, please.
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  Quote James Replybullet Posted: 30 Jan 2012 at 3:07pm
That is insane!

While in general I think it is terrible to be held hostage and the whole ordeal sounds over the top I think it is awesome that people are willing to go to that length to protect their lively hood and local resources from banks, businesses and governments! I also think it speaks volumes about respecting the people in the areas you plan on visiting or recreating in.

Obviously the whole hostage thing is crazy, and theft etc... while I am not agreeing with the measures taken place I just thought it would be fun to consider how much different we are here.... no one would act like that around here because we are used to the government or businesses railroading us and controlling our actions much more... makes me wonder, who is a more "patriotic american" now, North American's, Central American's or South Americans????
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  Quote up4air Replybullet Posted: 30 Jan 2012 at 3:42pm
hopefully the natives will be educated that the recreational users are on their side...
More water, please.
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  Quote BIGWATER Replybullet Posted: 30 Jan 2012 at 4:28pm
im actulay surprized this kinda thing doesnt happen more offten... kayakers traveling in the 3rd world with thousands of dollars in gear seems like a easy target to me ... that trip probably cost more then the whole native village makes in 10 years ... we realy are spoiled ... i would hate to have been standing on the burn pile, sounds like it could have been much worse ... glad they got out alive....but i hope the natives are not punished to badly, they are the real victims
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  Quote jhoff Replybullet Posted: 30 Jan 2012 at 5:33pm
Author got robbed at the takeout for the lower Pacuare, or a different section?
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  Quote jP Replybullet Posted: 30 Jan 2012 at 7:07pm
Originally posted by James

...it speaks volumes about respecting the people in the areas you plan on visiting or recreating ... (~And~) ...who is a more "patriotic american" now, North American's, Central American's or South Americans????


Aw damn...
Nutty P, you just had to snag me, didn't ya? Now I gotta read this whole damn thread, don't I? The whole Blog she linked to also?
Aww man,

Ok-
Agaus Blancas Conquistadors!!!!!!!!!!

For now, all I gotta say on this matter is this:
FLOOD THEM ALL!! LET THE RIVER SORT 'EM OUT!!!
(that includes us too.)



Edited by jP - 30 Jan 2012 at 7:11pm
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  Quote Wiggins Replybullet Posted: 31 Jan 2012 at 5:04pm
Having dealt with mobs of under educated/intoxicated/desperate/etc people in the past I have little sympathy for them, and even less for their leaders. It won't happen (it wouldn't happen here either), but they should all get very harsh punishment.

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  Quote BIGWATER Replybullet Posted: 31 Jan 2012 at 11:03pm
sorry  wiggins,  but you  are way out of line ,,,i understand that you have to deal with low lifes in your job evrey day and i am glad someone has to do it  .... but   we are talking about native people liveing in the jungle, not meth freaks in WA ..... these people dont have internet or any idea of what is happening in the outside world ... all they know is that there land is getting ravaged and they have no idea what to do about it ... i would be pissed off too .... any rich white people comeing into there zone is a threat... punishing the natives is the easy way out , may as well just give them infected clotheing and it will be all over  , oh thats right its warm down there, darn guess that wont work  ... i guess nothing will change ... we are all going to hell ... at least im enjoying the ride... actualy they are mayan natives right ?   what do they care it all ends this year anyway acording to them anyways
honestly very harsh punihment???   we realy are still in the dark ages i guess
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  Quote BIGWATER Replybullet Posted: 31 Jan 2012 at 11:24pm

sorry i misstyped  all that , i was a little worked up and typeing fast (and i cant spell )  but dam that is a crazy statement , very harsh punishment ?  you are right wiggins , may as well just kill em all , dam it , log it and mine it like we did here, then we could kayak all we want  ... i mean thats what we did here .. and i must say i love what we have here .. actualy i guess its a love/hate relationship

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  Quote Wiggins Replybullet Posted: 01 Feb 2012 at 4:24am
Right, clearly I am out of line.

I never said anything about capitol punishment (which for something like this I don't believe is appropriate), and I certainly did not say anything about genocide or punishing an entire people for the actions of a few.

Prisons were built for a reason. People who take hostages, rob them, and threaten to burn them alive deserve to reside in them for a good long while. End of story.

There is no moral high ground here for those involved in the mob. They are victims of someone else, not the people they took hostage. The hostages are the victims. Just because their government and some corporations mistreated them badly does not give them free reign to go out and take it out on anyone they please.

Like you I am surprised that this doesn't happen more often. Unlike you I give the mayan natives a little more credit to recognize right from wrong. Harsh punishment from a penal system for serious crimes is not a sign we are still in the dark ages. The same cannot be said for mob rule.

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  Quote irenen Replybullet Posted: 01 Feb 2012 at 8:55am
Have you guys read the follow-up comment from Josh Galt (one of the hostages), posted at the bottom?  He explains what happened when some politicos went back to sort things out.  (It's worth reading the entire thing, THIS IS THE LINK

"Everything turned out ok though, with plenty of arse-kissing from the aggressors and excuses like "we thought they were here to steal our children"...even though the entire night focused on the rivers. But whatever, let them blame it all on Angelina Jolie.

It's highly unlikely that anyone will ever run the specific river or really any of the rivers in the area given that there are dozens of dams in the works. It's disgusting and unstoppable. The natives have stripped the forests bare too though, so really they're all fighting but both sides are destructive."

It's all fun and games until someone loses a paddle.
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  Quote James Replybullet Posted: 01 Feb 2012 at 9:18am
Originally posted by BIGWATER

sorry i misstyped  all that , i was a little worked up and typeing fast (and i cant spell )  but dam that is a crazy statement , very harsh punishment ?  you are right wiggins , may as well just kill em all , dam it , log it and mine it like we did here, then we could kayak all we want  ... i mean thats what we did here .. and i must say i love what we have here .. actualy i guess its a love/hate relationship


Bigwater: I love the fact that you have tied together the current state of affairs here with what is inbound for these folks. Our forefathers never intended this nation to have national banks, global unions, federal police forces with ever decreasing regional authority. The bottom line is that we have had wars over very similar issues and the only thing that is different is that now we are all slaves to this system although slavery is abolished and were upset that these folks have not yet sucumb to the radical fact that it is too late to fight it, perhaps it was already to late to fight it when our nation was warring over the same types of things. Some people say the revolutionary war was about abolishing slavery, I say  it was about re-defining it, and fighting the involvement of Races and Colors in the definition. I say that because we have more slaves in this country now than ever before, and the plantations are no longer small businesses but rather government backed, enforced and authorized global corporations.

Read this article it is great to compare this to what happened with these kayakers:
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/science-environment-16816816

"There's been increasing conflict and violence against outsiders that are on their ancestral land," Survival's Peru campaigner Rebecca Spooner told BBC News.That violence has included arrows being fired at tourists in passing boats, and a warning arrow - with no tip - being recently fired at a Manu park ranger.

"Ms Spooner suggested that the evident increase in violence could be abated by preserving the local tribes' traditional lands." Yea right sure it can, surround this little chunk of woods by a metroplex and then wonder why they get mad... All the f'n monkeys and animals are gone but they have land to "Use" that we gave them. Violence is inevitable in this case because the impact on their lives is inevitable... And guess what this was all started by some Ahole photographer that strapped a telescope to his camera to take "never before seen" photos of the lives they clearly want to be left alone with. SoRRY guys ain't gonna happen.

Now keep in mind it is not their land because the country owns it right? But what makes it more the countries land than theirs... they have been there longer... oh yea right "Force". Just like our country. All this ripe land for the taking, for a while we even pretended with things like Land Patents, Homesteading and Grants that this was going to be "your land and my land" but lets be honest here.... America and all the land within this country belongs to the government which belongs to banks. You want proof.  Go buy a house, go buy a car and then try to conduct any business without a title, warranty or deed. You can't that is a document produced by the state to show who they view as the rightful owner. But again we already understand ownership is not defined by who has rights but rather who has force. You think our constitution was written to ensure that the people of this country continued to have rights.... no it was to ensure that the people of this country continued to have force to ensure their rights! Our Government was too be a "portion" of that force with rules to prevent it from attempting to own us.

I can't keep going on like this, people all around here are going to realize that I am a nutcase and that I am ranting, I own up to both. You want to talk turkey shoot me a PM we can go down a river and I will show you with proof how our country operates and how sick the state we are has become.

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  Quote James Replybullet Posted: 01 Feb 2012 at 9:33am
For fun wiggins not as an attack - just for debate:

"Prisons were built for a reason. People who take hostages, rob them, and threaten to burn them alive deserve to reside in them for a good long while. End of story. "
Our government takes hostages (we call them prisoners), we threaten to do similar things (although burning alive has not been used for quite a while here in our country strike that , around our state at least in frequency), In fact our government even does it to the very people they claim to serve and protect.

There is no moral high ground here for those involved in the mob.
What is a Mob? Because I would argue that our Military and Police are just as much of a mob as this is. I have been threatened by police with pretty terrible stuff, I have been stolen from and I have been violated. On record the judges said I should chalk it up to the police having a bad day, but I have experienced it.

They are victims of someone else, not the people they took hostage. The hostages are the victims. Just because their government and some corporations mistreated them badly does not give them free reign to go out and take it out on anyone they please.
I do believe you would agree that just because a government and corporation mistreats someone does not mean anyone can stand up against them... Well that is because you are in the enforcement arm of the government and corporation. I should start saying Corporate State since our original government is no longer in existence. But still I get where you are coming from.
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  Quote up4air Replybullet Posted: 01 Feb 2012 at 4:56pm
jhoff: lower
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  Quote Wiggins Replybullet Posted: 01 Feb 2012 at 8:40pm
I am not going to argue with you on point number 1. Ask me about what happened to my dad sometime offline and I will tell you why, but I won't post online about it. I can't say that there are not inequities in the system, and that everyone who deserves to go to prison will get the privilege. What I will say is that none of that changes the fact that people who take hostages, rob, and threaten to kill are among them; and not imprisoning one group of people who have earned it because we can't imprison all who deserve it doesn't seem like a good answer either.

I would say your police/military as a mob claim is not accurate. Police and the military both have formalized command structures, and mechanisms for policing themselves. The "leaders" in the mob have no real control over it, whereas the military and police do have fairly solid control over their people. I would say that comparing the police and military to organized crime or street gangs would be a much stronger assertion.

Ultimately I feel both claims fall flat because they assume at one point or another there is a grand plan or scheme being put into action outside of the stated purpose of law enforcement or national security. Certainly the gang model requires conspiracy on a level that would be impossible to hide or cover up on a scale that would put all the cops in the nation on the same script.

When I look around on a institutional level I don't see a plan, but chaos created by multiple agendas (some good, some bad) created by a system in which no one group has enough power to take control and put us on track with a cohesive plan. On the level of the cops on the beat I think the answer is as simple as the job attracts a lot of dicks. Some agencies weed them out or reign them in better than others. Unfortunately the assholes are a lot more noticeable than the rest.

I believe there are proper ways to stand up to a government or a corporation up to and including using direct action and violence when the circumstances merit it. What I can't get on board with is striking out against anything that happens to float by because you are pissed off at the way the world has treated you. If you plan on fighting back against your government or a corporation then fight the government or the corporation.

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  Quote jP Replybullet Posted: 01 Feb 2012 at 10:41pm
James, thanks for that rant, m'man- save me the trouble of banging out something way less articulate to say basicly the same thing.

Look- it sucks what happened to those cats.
But those cats are Gringos.
And them Mayan cats been fu*ked by Gringos for HUNDEREDS
Of years.
Thats called history, kids.
Does it justify the ignorance and violence?
Of course not.

But what gives WHITIE the HUBRIS to think he can go all over the planet doin all this spoiled rich kid leisure sh*t (in this case whitewater boating) and do what the fu*k he wants without havin' to risk bumpin into History (OUR story)?

Because History is still OUR story. If you don't know the story, well you just may risk trippin off into a DARK story.

It sucks, but I got little sympathy for Whitie gettin tangled up in the Jungle. Because I know how peeps be rallying in this age.

That blurb in the blog about environmentalism and "protecting the river"?! I SMELL BULLsh*t. THOSE RIVER BOARDERS AND ASSORTED BOATERS ARE PRIMARILY THER TO GET THERE WHITEWATER JOLLIES OFF. Modern day safari. Modern day "gentleman's club". Aguas Blancas Conquistadors.

Because the way I'm feeling about this world sometimes and the way we've been COMPLICIT (just the way James said) and GIIVEN our freedoms away for petty comforts...
If I lived there in that jungle canyon- less informed, less vindicated, and even less able to budge or change the oppression bearing down on me: it wouldn't be right in the "eyes of god" or in the letter of the law, but I'd probably want to draw blood too.

So: who is the true PATRIOT, my fellow Sheeple?

Edited by jP - 01 Feb 2012 at 11:45pm
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  Quote jP Replybullet Posted: 01 Feb 2012 at 11:38pm
Originally posted by Wiggins

What I can't get on board with is striking out against anything that happens to float by because you are pissed off at the way the world has treated you. If you plan on fighting back against your government or a corporation then fight the government or the corporation.

Kyle


There you go. I agree with that too. My post was an examination of historical dynamics that become larger than the human agents who act out as an effect of those dynamics, often without understanding fully what they are doing to whom.
But, the portion of your post that I quoted seems to be the core of your argument, Kyle. And I agree with it as well. I just feel that if people can't comprehend the inertia of these broad historical arcs, they are doomed to walk into these situations.

I also find it strange that no account was given to explain how they got into trouble with the locals in the first place. How were their language skills? Did they have the slightest clue about the local social/political situation before "dropping in" ect?

Both James and Kyle make excellent points.
Still:

FLOOD THEM ALL. LET THE RIVER SORT 'EM OUT!!!
~And~
Of course that includes us too
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  Quote jP Replybullet Posted: 02 Feb 2012 at 12:20am
Great topic, up4air. But...

Originally posted by up4air

hopefully the natives will be educated that the recreational users are on their side...


Are they, really? I mean, I'd like to think I'm on the side of "the oppressed natives" too. But even the use of the word "natives" smacks of bigotry. In this day and age "locals" might convey it better. But I admit I am mincing words now. Its just that "natives" still potentially conjures up imagery of "primitive" peoples wearing bones through their noses and sh*t like that, which is the same thing National Petroleum Radio does along with the other agencies when they pronounce a place like Kabul as "cobble" and other weird subtle tricks that invoke my skepticism as if someone is in some meeting room planning these subtle details in an effort to shape my thinking about remote issues as they read from the "Frank Luntz" playbook (google him, maybe).

I digress. Again. on the side of "the natives", huh? Then how come we aren't on the the side of "the natives" around here? Sure, its become quite popular to identify with the concepts of "sticking it to The Man", but, is going boating every weekend sticking it to the man? No.

"On their side" because its the thought that counts? what ACTIONS have these rich white people taken to remotely be considered to be "on their side"?

fu*k whitewater collonialism. That's why I stay in Washington, anymore: I can go and direct my actions and understand who's local zone I'm dropping into. I can make simple, deliberate choices to spend my money in these local communities (or not). I can connect with the locals (and often do. More than the local whitewater collonialists I end up boating with: fu*kin insular urbanistas!

I bet you if these WW enthusiasts would have directly contacted these peoples beforehand and socially approached the situation differently, the outcome would've been different. You go in there thinking that the river is YOUR recreation to TAKE, well, I guess that means you are approaching these people's communities with the same irreverence as the governments and extractive industries. No wonder those Guatemalan locals felt so affronted. What they did was wrong, but, no wonder.

Stupid Whitie.

Edited by jP - 02 Feb 2012 at 12:36am
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  Quote Wiggins Replybullet Posted: 02 Feb 2012 at 5:50am
In their defense the article did say they had a translator, but I generally agree with you. I have read about some of the exploits of some groups of whitewater boaters and I wonder how in the hell they survived the locals.

Go out into the middle of nowhere in a foreign land and you are at the mercy of the locals. Better to stay home or in a place where you know you are welcome. Failing that best tread lightly because this river don't go to Antree. Option B is you can spray paint some road signs and get caned after nobody gives a damn what your civil rights are back home.

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  Quote BIGWATER Replybullet Posted: 02 Feb 2012 at 8:44am
here is a quote from the cammera man on the trip ...
 
"If you're going someplace sketchy, know the cultures and customs of the people who consider the land and river "theirs", and even if you think you have permission, you'd better be damn sure.

Otherwise you better have made your peace with God.

Alternatively, you could just stay the hell out of really sketchy areas, no matter how pretty the whitewater. Yeah, that might be a decent plan in the future too. Just a thought."
 
funny how he put "theirs" in quotes ...it still seems like he thought he has some kind of right to be there.....the locals have been there longer then anyone, if its not theirs then whoes is it ?    oh  yea might is right, guess its not theirs
 
we realy are talken about huge cultural difrences also ,  some of these tribes may have very violent customs.... to them this is life ,they have been fighting with other tribes forever.... the concept of a jail and government may not even exsit to them... heck some of these tribes dont even have a word for time...how can you give them a jail sentence if they have no concept of time ??
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  Quote James Replybullet Posted: 02 Feb 2012 at 1:04pm
Bigwater: If you read that article I posted - I would agree that particular tribe is in a different spot, they really don't mingle with other civilizations. KEY is OTHER. Some people would say they don't mingle with civilization period, but that is to say they are not a civilization, which they are. They just choose to live differently and that is fine, but the bottom line is that they are not fighting against a particular influence but rather against all influences.

This discussion about the Guatemala incident is because the group was fighting against a particular influence. They clearly interact with other civilizations / cultures and understand them which is why they took the action they took.

To get back to where I was originally trying to go read that closing quote from his update:
"It's really just one more example of superstition, religion, and "tradition" mixing with isolation, ignorance, and an ancestry of violent culture to create chaos."

That is total bogus. I think it is much more simple: it is a group of people fighting for what they believe is theirs. Are they going to come up with a bunch of crappy excuses when confronted by a larger power ie "we thought they were going to steal our children" perhaps, but the bottom line is these people were sending a message to Developers, and the government. This is ours, stay out or were going to have problems. Kayakers, Riverboarders, hikers and anyone else from some other place that thinks they can trampse around and explore this area is opening it up for further influence and a further loss of control and we will fight that.

Just for fun, imagine this, what if some folks went to the Mayans and said, hey we see what your up against, and well it makes us mad too and we want to help you keep up the good fight, so here are a bunch of weapons. They train and supply them, then a bit later the same group of folks goes to a neighboring power that is backed by developers of "True Civilization" and they say hey these folks are out of control. They have guns and training and they are basically turning into a real threat. What do you say you run some publicity so everyone round these parts understands how dangerous they are, and in a little bit everyone will be purdy happy when we clean em up, why would we do it, well just remember that as you gain more political influence and as you build your little civilization we helped you out, and we are going to need you too do x and y etc...

Well guess what that has been happening all around the world for quite sometime. I am not surprised now that remote people all around the world are becoming quite violent towards any types of influence. We could just start listing off military involvement one after another where this was the case. We chalk it up to Freedom, but in reality the opposite is occurring.

So do I think that hostages and burning at the stake are ok, of course not... NO ONE DOES, not even these Mayans, that is why they never did it. If they thought it was ok we never would have read this story in the first place, but when you are pushed to a point of action you make a decision to do what it takes to protect that liberty you feel is rightfully yours.

And so back to our fun debate. There is no conspiracy, or grand scheme. There are hundreds of thousands of separate interests in our country. The government we now know has been re-formed to serve a new set of interests vs the original constitutional government that founded this nation. Police, National Security and our Military have changed to support that new role. There is no secret group, there is no hidden mission. Business is as normal. Americans have slowly traded rights for creature comforts and we are continuing to do so at an alarming rate!! The problem is that we are now all of a sudden not happy or just don't understand why others would not do the same.
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  Quote up4air Replybullet Posted: 02 Feb 2012 at 2:12pm
JP what I meant was, that the kayakers are opposed to dams. The 'locals' thought they were employees of the dam projects. Since they are gringos they must be enemies? Talk about racist. Intimidate and threaten first, ask questions later, then don't believe the answers seemed to be the m.o.

I know Josh has lived in Central America for at least three consecutive years and speaks Spanish well. I've traveled and boated with him in Costa Rica we've had good experiences with the locals there, although I know Guatemala is very different. I'm sure he was not the only one who spoke the language. He'd recently been in the Darien Gap, which is hells more dangerous than Guatemala. I suspect more details will come out eventually. I am curious as well. Josh wrote it like a short press release. But he expressed that he's tired of thinking about the episode so coming from him, more info might be awhile. I was hoping someone else on PP might know one of the other involved parties.
More water, please.
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  Quote James Replybullet Posted: 02 Feb 2012 at 2:39pm
Just out of curiosity why was he in the Darién Gap?
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  Quote jP Replybullet Posted: 02 Feb 2012 at 8:39pm
That's all true, I'm sure, Rochelle. I believe you.
But...

"It's really just one more example of superstition, religion, and "tradition" mixing with isolation, ignorance, and an ancestry of violent culture to create chaos."

To requote what James' above post quoted. That comment just sounds too over simplified. Now, I am probably at risk at this point of doing what mainstream news does by taking that out of context. And I admit I've never been held hostage and threatened like that (although I was nearly robbed a few times in Costa Rica by scary individuals and one incident was pretty threatening).
I'll give these victoms the benefit of the doubt because after an experience as intense as that must have been, it will take a long time for them to fully process the event and be able to reflect on it.

Still, sounds like the same old stuff Whitie In The Jungle is likely to conclude after not having the upper hand/ getting their way (getting to go in there and "Give 'er".) Painting them as primitive, backwards, superstitious-- The Angelina Jolie comment.

Why should I keep typing into the blather n chatter?
Bottom Line: James' last post is spot on.
🐋🐋🐋🐋🐋🐋🐋🐋🐋🐋🐋
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up4air
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  Quote up4air Replybullet Posted: 05 Feb 2012 at 1:20pm
Just out of curiosity why was he in the Darién Gap?

have no idea - sounded like a vacation/adventure of sorts. Josh can be somewhat mysterious at times!
More water, please.
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