Topic: Kayakers dont exsist Posted: 02 Dec 2011 at 3:48am
yes kayakers dont exsist
there are maby 1000 kayakers in WA state , maby 500 that boat on a regular basis
out of the over 7 million people in this state thats statsiticaly nothing
yes its late and i just got back from the bar ... but i just had this talk with a bunch of people in said bar (buzzes tavern on mud bay)
why are there so few kayakers ??
well ... there are many reasons , its to cold , you cant breath water , that
sh*t is crazy, ext ext
the bottom line ... its very hard to get into, you must learn to roll and learn basic skills
any dumb ass can buy a snow board and a lift ticket and fall down the mountain and return home
if you buy a kayak and put in on the Tilton you most likely will die , lose all your gear , or have an epic you will never want to repeat
it seems to me kayaking hit a peak in the 90s and less and less people are getting into it now
i have run roll classes at Evergreen off and on over the years , and taken many new boaters out on class II and III stuff , do i want to do that when everything is flooding and the surf is amazing ??? hell no, i want freaks like me to surf with
and when i say freaks i mean freaks ... since i am the only boater in Oly that boated 8 days in a row on world class whitewater last week i am a freak
yes i dont have kids or wife , i dont care about the furture at all , and im self employed so i take "flood days",,,,i live for the storm
but still, it could have been 10 days if i had more people to go with , yes i could do solo runs but even freaks like company
the only reason i even post this is because 3 people i talked to in the bar said they always wanted to kayak but did not know how to get into it
as with every year i hope some boater moves to Oly and wants to rage all the goods
and some years they do , but they are always from CO or the east coast where there seems to be some kind of kayaking scene
i can honeslty say the only person that learned to kayak in Oly that i know and stuck with it in the last 18 years is me , i have boated with many people over thoes 18 years but i dont think any of them learned in Oly and none stayed (well kennan may come back but hes at college in MT now)
Maby WA is a bad place to learn ? to cold ? to remote ?
what ever it is this is a bad trend , we need more boaters !!
maby im talken crazy , but it seems such and amazing place would spawn more kayakers
is it realy up to me to try and build a kayaking scene in Oly ? if so how ?
fell free to tell me im nuts... remeber kayaking suxs, get a job !!
I agree with you on why fewer people get into kayaking, there's definitely a steeper learning curve and a bigger discomfort factor compared to something like skiing, not to mention a bigger fear factor I think. You can be a non-core skier but still go out and have a chill day on some easy slopes a few times a year, whereas on a river, if you're not rolling up it's just as hard to breathe when you're upside down on a Class II as it is on a Class V.
Having started relatively recently though, I will say I found this to be a great place to get started - but part of that was because of groups that might not exist in Oly?
I took the NWOC Whitewater Fever class (http://www.nwoc.com/classes/wwclass.asp?page=classes#Whitewater - no, I am not a paid affiliate :) which I think is a great way to learn how to roll, get out on some easy whitewater, and meet other people who also want to get better. I think they have a really good success rate teaching the roll, and another good thing about that class is you don't have to buy any gear in order to take it.
I think after a class is when a lot of people fall out of it because either they don't have people to go with, or they go with their Class IV friends who take them on stuff that's too hard and freak them out, or else those friends don't have time to go on easy stuff often enough because they're also trying to get out on the harder stuff not to mention work, etc.
That's where I think the Washington Kayak Club - http://www.washingtonkayakclub.org/ - is an awesome next step, because they're perfectly set up to help newer boaters get on Class II and III rivers with organized trips. There are a ton of trips that are not listed on the website once you get on a few email lists. For some reason a lot of people I say this to don't want to join WKC or think it's expensive (it's not, like $65 a year for WKC and ACA membership together), but that's how I got into Class IIIs.
And from there you start hopping onto the Sky, and Rob takes care of the rest. :)
I can see how if there are not organized places like that to help you learn in Oly then it would be much harder. There's always definitely going to be a fall-out rate for beginners in any sport, and probably more so for kayaking just because of the kind of sport it is. But for me at least this has been a really good place to get started in.
I'm interested to hear what some of the newer boaters think.
It's all fun and games until someone loses a paddle.
bigwater, just moved to tacoma from bellingham. pretty big boating community up there. I need more boating friends down here though. i had hit you up last weekend for tilton but it didnt happen. keep me in mind though.
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Courtney Big Boofer
Whitewater,sea kayaking, snowboarding, backpacking.
Joined: 22 Mar 2005
Location: United States
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I am originally from Georgia and the difference I notice is that 1) the water is very cold here. 2) in Georgia when we went kayaking we almost were always camping so we really all got to know each other. 3) We almost always went to eat together after paddling so again we would get to know each other 4) It is sunny except for creeking season in the winter when the rivers are dependent on rainfall but then it's still not that cold out. 5) There seems to be ALOT more eddy service to play spots along rivers there
6) again - the water is much warmer there and that make a big difference with confidence and flipping. That' just my two cents.
I moved to the PNW two and a half years ago and started kayaking this spring. I can say I probably never would have got into kayaking had I not made the move and I certainly would not be learning at such a quick rate. I am a University of Puget Sound student, and I have had the benefit of a being part of a very vibrant club where I have been able to make many connections with local boaters and other students. Since I have been involved, the club seems to continue to grow and we are constantly searching for new gear to help aspiring kayakers get out on the water. It never ceases to amaze me that around twenty people show up twice weekly to kayak in a pool! When I started going to pool session I realized that kayaking must be about much more than just a rush to get people to paddle around for two hours in a chlorinated flat-water puddle. While there are certainly fewer people in the kayaking community than in other adrenaline sports communities, isn't that a good thing?I think because of the small size there is a much more engaged community of people who are just as passionate about spending time with others who enjoy the activity and passing the sport along to the next generation.
I am also a skier and I recently made a switch to backcountry skiing because I really don’t enjoy the resort culture nor can I pay for it.While there are few backcountry skiers in Washington, it has got the best backcountry terrain outside of Alaska.I agree that it is frustrating to be passionate about these less main stream activities since few others are involved in the sport the same way yet the comradery gained from being involved in them is much more than I have ever felt from buying a lift ticket. Perhaps it is because I am not an elite boater and I am satisfied about just getting out on any type of run but I think there are so many great ways to get into boating here.Just the extent and depth of this site alone are testaments to how many kayakers there are in this area.While I am in Tacoma, which seems pretty central for kayaking purposes, I have been able to get out basically every weekend since September.Admittedly, I have been shut out as well because I have not had people to go with, but more often than not there are people who advertise their trips and they are really happy to meet others who share their interest.Kayakers are certainly a small group but, personally, it is the fact that kayaking is somewhat of a fringe sport that makes it so special.Always down to paddle!
I agree that the temperature is a major factor in the size of the community. In Idaho, where the water tends to be warmer there are quite a few more boaters. I doubt I would have become a boater if I had had to learn in WA. Before I moved here all you needed was a sprayskirt, helmet, paddle, lifejacket, and boat. Out here you need much more equipment.
I have had a unique beginner experience - I started boating this year after moving in with a bunch of kayakers. After hearing them talk about running the gnar and what an adventure kayaking can be, I wanted to give it a shot. Luckily, I was able to borrow most of the gear, and convinced my friends to take me out on easy(ish) rivers after some pool sessions. Some of the key things that have helped me, that I think are road blocks to entry:
1) Gear - you need a drysuit to boat in western WA and be comfortable (especially swimming). That is a fairly sizable expense for most, and is just the start of all the gear.
2) Friends who will babysit you - learning to ski, or bike or other sports - one can do them individually and be safe. A beginner shouldn't go on a river alone, and should have good safety support. I know I was stoked to have friends who were on me the second I was swimming (multiple times per run :) ), and who were very experienced with rescue. I think this is a pretty big hurdle for most beginners - possibly because some people will take beginners in over their heads, or possibly because a lot of 'experienced' paddlers don't take the beginners out with the mindset of 'this run is for YOU, I am going to make sure YOU are safe and have a great time!' Again, I have gotten very lucky in this regard, but I have heard plenty of horror stories!
3) Fear - kayaking is SCARY! When I didn't know if I could hit a roll, I was scared to flip. When I was scared to flip, I flipped on shallow, manky rocks. Thus, I got beat up on shallow, manky rocks. I can't imagine this was a rarity in my case. Water is a daunting force, and not everyone is excited about putting themselves upside down strapped in an unfamiliar craft, in WW. I think this relates a lot back to your crew taking care of you and not taking you in over your head as a beginner.
All that being said, kayaking is extremely fun, and a great way face your fears and learn mental (and sometimes physical) toughness. I have been having a blast thus far, and will continue getting on the river every (or almost every) weekend!
chris, hit up endo on here. he's a junior in HS but I'm sure he'd be down to get out. I took him out a few years ago and he managed to style the nisqually, better than my first time down. should be pretty good by now. I'm not sure who he boats with. send him a PM or I can give you his number.
well this post kinda started as a drunken rant (feeling the hang over today), but im glad to see some replys
maby i should go to the UPS roll sessions just to meet more boaters , or maby ill just start driveing north more to go boating , altho i cant stand the trafic north of Oly and it seems crazy to spend hours in trafic heading north when there is so much great stuf to do down here with no trafic ... i guess i would rather do a nice class 3 run on the olympic with a chill drive then brave the trafic up north to do something harder
it seems cold is one of the bigest factors keeping people from kayaking ,and yes drysuits cost alot and dont last very long if you kayak a ton
personaly i wear a ton of flease under my dry suit and play hard from put in to take out, most days im to hot and roll just to cool off , i also think a head beany with earflaps and chin stap is key for warmth, the ones with no chin strap let much more water in when rolling
On the average day, the only people we need in this sport are the ones we run shuttle and the river with. After that, it becomes a measure of what we need to keep our voices heard for rivers that flow-and new friends to boat with.
I think Travisimo's post nailed it. Culture: ours is gravitating to the vicarious engagement. We pretend everything. That's why marriage fails, why education doesn't provide jobs (readily), and why our political system is stagnant.
Look around as you shop this holiday season. Guaranteed you'll see a lot of The North Face outerwear on people that most likely aren't coming close to utilizing the equipment. In the parking lot, how many off road vehicles can you spot that wouldn't ever be put to even half their potential?
This culture is one of paradox: a rapist who wants the best for the raped, yet only does worse in the end.
Not to be all bah-humbug (and I do realize that having a username like Mr. Grinch opens up a can of worms, but to me it's just a college nickname 'cause I visually reminded some friends of said character one night when we were, um, enhanced), and I know it warms the spirit cause we're used to it, but how does it make sense to use more energy- all the lighting and whatnot- during the darker colder times of the year when we need that energy to keep warm and help people in need? Isn't that the true spirit of theseason, to help and give?
Forget that, too big a can of worms.
So, as our culture advances a sterilized sense of being, progressing and perpetuating neurotic fundamentals of standardized thought and behavior, not to mention profitable consumption, "uncomfortable" lifestyles, especially the more dangerous ones like WW Kayaking, will only suffer in the greater picture. Who wants to hire a loony who has the high probability of being out of work from shoulder issues? Snowboarding/skiing is cool, however, and the money and caché lend a more acceptable tolerance. Climbers are more safe, and any of your standard stick-and-ball sports are just so damn accessible and culturally prominent that there's no way you'd hire a fan of a rival team, even if the guy was a little better (made that last part up, but wouldn't doubt it, a little).
Come on, riding a loud harley is now enjoying nature, to the dismay of others actually enjoying quiet, and women still aren't earning equal pay in the workforce.
We're the most religious country on the planet, with the highest number of people locked up, the highest percentage of obese, the most who doubt human impact on the climate of our Earth, the most who doubt evolution, and the most who don't realize how wasteful we are. It's all a result of the media, too. Any side, right or left, the corporations bought them years ago, now they just pretend to stick up for us while actually providing nothing of substance for humanity. Gay marriage? Not an issue, should be just marriage, for anyone. Hell, more than half of straight marriage ends in divorce anyway. Immigration? This country was founded on illegal immigration, so let us be progressive in our dealings. Drugs and a "war" on them? Lies. Lies about the wars we're in. Lies deep in our government, lies that striate us and stress us, that keep us from experience other than commerce. Commerce that hasn't got longevity or a deep meaning, after all, that might not lead to more sales. Consumption.
Ugh, sorry for that. I'm sure someone is offended, but remember, nobody made you read it :) you have the right to look away, I have the right to say anything.
if its all about being trendy and cool then i definatly think the hey day for kayaking came and went , altho i dont want to belive this
the playboats cant get any smaller (unless people cut off there feet), and how much better can a creek boat get ?
for comsumers that want the newest and greatest thing, thats not fun , they want to buy something "better or cooler" every year
a good exsample of this is stand up paddle boarding (SUP)
5 years ago the only people doing SUP actulay surfed waves, now for some reason someone hit a gold mine and is selling these things to everyone and there brother
this summer i saw them all over on FLAT water , people in the bay , lakes , hell i worked for a guy that has one for his swimming pool ?! and these boards r not cheap
takeing a SUP on flat water seems like taken a playboat on a sea kayaking trip, or rideing a Mnt bike in a road race, its for SURFING people
i mean im glad to see people actualy on the water anyway they can get there, at least they r not in the mall or sitting in front of the TV, but still ?? if i wanted to see the bay i would get in a sea kayak, not paddle in circles on a board next to the marina
but SUP is cool , new , trendy !!
who ever is marketing these things is laughing all the way to the bank, wish i thought of it
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Courtney Big Boofer
Whitewater,sea kayaking, snowboarding, backpacking.
Joined: 22 Mar 2005
Location: United States
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Posts: 662
I really don't think there's much about ww kayaking that has to do with being trendy, at least not for the people who stick with it, and at least not in this part of the country
- I can't speak for other places.
There's too much discomfort and fear that's unavoidable in this sport for it to appeal to people just on the grounds of being trendy. The people who stick with it love it exactly because of those risks and rewards, the draw of whitewater, which is hard to explain - the beautiful places you end up and the camaraderie of amazing people who love the sport, which was a huge, unexpected bonus for me. And for women especially, this is not exactly a glamor sport. Hunkering down in a ski lodge with a Faceplant in your hand and your hair still floofy (actually I was never able to pull off that last part, but many women can :) is a far cry from standing on the side of a river in the snow with your skull cap askew and your nose producing some kind of snot festival after a hole ride and a crappy swim.
So I realize it's easy to get jaded about trends that we see that are crummy, but I think there will always be people out there doing whitewater kayaking for the same reasons we're doing it, partly because there aren't any shortcuts that make it comfortable, easy, or not frightening at times.
I just wanted to also say, just because something is popular doesn't mean it's some kind of superficial trend. What's wrong with people taking SUPs on flat water? I've tried it, and I know exactly why they're not on big waves, aside from the time and expense of getting to those waves - it's a lot harder than it looks, even with just a little boat wake. Someone paddling around on an SUP on Lake Washington is someone who is not indoors sitting in front of a video game console or speeding around the lake in a 100 decibel cigarette boat, and the more people love water and the outdoors, they more reasons they have to support funding the preservation of those experiences. So I say, go flatwater SUPers, you trendsetters you.
It's all fun and games until someone loses a paddle.
I moved from "Sunny California" to Seattle in June of 2008. Since then, per my log, I have had only 37 days on WA rivers. Of that, an overwhelming majority (24 days) have been either solo paddles or with "out of state" paddlers. I have actually paddled at least 30 days (since June 2008) outside of WA, either in CA or in Cost Rica or in Ecuador
When I lived in the SF Bay Area, in spite of the fact that the closest rivers in the Sierra foothills were about 2-4 hours drive (one way), I paddled, on average 40 to 60 days a year
I paddled Class II with beginners, I took many many folks on their maiden Class III and Class IV runs and there were many people who I could hook up with to paddle stuff that was at the edge of my ability (Giant Gap, Burnt Ranch Gorge, Upper Kyburz, etc.)
Even through winter, when there was snow on the ground, the water was cold but not freezing and the sun shined for some part of the day 90%+ of the time
Now, when I moved to Seattle, a big part of the excitement was the fact that from downtown Seattle, I was less than 90 minutes for a dozen Class III - Class IV+ runs.
It seems that the water temperature and weather keeps away all but the hard core.
well just let me say im not trying to hate on SUPers, i honestly just dont get it , surfing a wave is hard in a playboat also .... but ya dont see hoards of people taken playboats on the lake , and i did say its better then them at the mall or in front of the TV , but still i dont get it , maby i just wish there was 10 hot chicks in playboats at the marina on flat water instead of on SUPs, i duno
as far as flying the coop , i find no need to do so for world class whitewater all winter , but in the last few years finding people has been the problem
cold has never been a factor for me and i like rideing the storms
boating in the sun ? i get that every spring and summer in WA, ID, CA or BC
as far as days on the river , i cant keep track .... 8 or 9 days on the tilton so far this season , by winters end ill have well over 40 days on the tilton alone .... and i run lots of other stuff also , i spent 2 epic days surfing the nassel the other week , one day i was the only one there all day on a world class play hole , and then there was the day on canyon creek , but i dont want to talk about how many days a year i get because i honestly dont care as long as its ALOT of days
i think if cold is that much of a factor in boating you are not dressing properly, end of story, wear lots of flease
if the dark forbiding days get you in a weird head space well thats all in your head , the wave is just as sweet in the sun as when its sideways rain
but im used to my olympic rainforest boating so i guess im either crazy or to gnar
since i ran the humptulips today at low water i guess im not gnar ... just crazy
Great discussion, PPeeps.
Cris, I'm more inclined to agree with TKelly in his points that we don't need more folks in the sport. Personally, I feel as though I have an abundance of people to kayak with, regardless of my particular kayaking focus. I got my sea kayak homie who goes as big on the salt as I want to, whether its multi days in mixed conditions in spring or wearing our helmets playing in rocky surf.
I can boat any grade of whitewater I want with people who want to boat it: got a posse for Robe at moderate flows, a posse for Robe at high flows (when I'm game), and plenty of people to run class III, IV or V with. Plenty of playboaters on the Wenatchee of widely varying sensibilities. Going to boat the Lower Green tomorrow.
I do lack long boat minded paddlers, and that gets lonely, but I can rock that sh*t solo. Plus there are a few people around who "get" the longboat mentality...
Seems though that Olympia's scene could use a booster shot. So rather than think you need more boaters joining the sport, I think maybe there are creative solutions as to how you could strengthen ties with those of us who are out here already gettin it done- whose hands you don't need to hold.
To wrap up this post, lets try to stay focused on your main problem. You need more boaters in Olympia boatn w/ you.
Maybe this community can help, at least a little to facilitate that. We'll revisit this.
BTW, Grinch: love your post and everything you articulated in it. I agree 100%. Off topic, sure, but still- it only makes me want to boat with you more and ain't nothing wrong w/ connectin a tangent to the whole.
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