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cmellon
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  Quote cmellon Replybullet Topic: Upper Ingalls
    Posted: 20 Jun 2011 at 2:52pm
Thanks to Damon's motivation we hiked up Ingalls Creek trail for approximately 3/4 mile and found great continuous class 4 paddling. From the sound of it there's more worth hiking to but gets harder and still non stop paddling. There were 2 pieces of wood but both were visible and easy to avoid. You can see much of the run from the trail and the sections you can't see are similar in character so no hidden river wide sieves etc. Anyone paddled higher up on the creek or have any further info when it turns to mank?
 
Also saw a nasty pin on Peshastin probably at the same spot as posted last week. Definitely keep an eye out for that one.
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  Quote catwoman4cfs Replybullet Posted: 20 Jun 2011 at 3:44pm
Was the stretch on Ingalls from the trailhead down to Peshastin clean?  We ran Peshastin a couple weeks ago in small cats and would like to run Ingalls this coming weekend. 
 
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  Quote JayB Replybullet Posted: 20 Jun 2011 at 5:17pm
Thanks for the info.

Where was the pin on Peshastin?
-Jay
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  Quote TomMarley Replybullet Posted: 20 Jun 2011 at 5:41pm
We rafted (R2 style) the same section last week and it was pretty sweet. Kayaks should have no trouble with the two log moves on upper Ingalls as our raft fit readily under both.

The section below the trailhead was mostly clear, but there was a submerged channel-wide log to the right of the island right before the Peshastin confluence. We went right over and so did our safety kayaker (thanks for the safety, jP), but it might be tricky at lower flows.

You can hike farther up the trail, but the significantly larger triple drop (almost 3/4-mile up the trail) is log-choked at the top of the last drop. Farther upstream looks really good at least 2 miles up, but I wouldn't boat in there til scouting every inch for wood.
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  Quote chipmaney Replybullet Posted: 20 Jun 2011 at 5:57pm
The pin was actually on Ingalls about 15yds upstream of the confluence. The river wants to take you center, which looks fine, with an innocuous looking little crashing pillow in the line. It looks like you will just go over the pillow, but it grabbed a boat which we were lucky to recover.

Wood is present on the first rapid, which starts at the put-in and goes about 250yds down stream. The very bottom has a large rock on river right with a piece of wood broached on it at the water surface. You can stay right of the rock, hug the right bank and slide (at our flow, ~9k) over the log, or you can make a much harder move left of the rock and avoid the wood altogether. If you miss the left line, you risk bad interactions with both the wood and the rock. At higher flows, this wood is less of an issue, unless you are upside down. At lower flows, the right line becomes a no-go, thus the rapid may become a portage for non-experts.

In a raft, the left line is a no-go, as there would be a severe risk of impaling your raft on the end of the wood. You could probably slide over the wood to the right to the right of the rock, but it's a tight line and probably not worth the significant broach risk.
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  Quote chipmaney Replybullet Posted: 20 Jun 2011 at 5:59pm
at higher, flows than we ran it, you could probably get a raft over the wood...
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  Quote doggievacation Replybullet Posted: 21 Jun 2011 at 7:38am
Jeebus, that pin rock is a bugger!  I was actually getting ready to put in on Peshastin Creek below the confluence with Ingalls when I saw one of your crew run back up stream on the trail.  I raced down to see if I could help, but the boat dislodged just about the time I got there.  It's the exact same spot that got me a couple of weeks ago.  Glad you guys are okay!

Did the rest of you run river right?  Was it totally clean?  Anyone try to run the left side?

John
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  Quote huckin harms Replybullet Posted: 21 Jun 2011 at 8:14am
Hey Charles,
 
Thanks for sharing the trip.  Sounds like a fun stretch worth the hike.  Tom, seems nuts taking a raft into that place, but then what do I know about that.... nuthin.  :)
 
 
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  Quote TomMarley Replybullet Posted: 21 Jun 2011 at 8:42am
Yeah, it was pretty full on in the raft. We scouted it a couple times and hiked every bit of the creek we couldn't see from the trail before hiking our boat in.

The Peshastin Creek gage was at about 650cfs when we ran it, and the Wenatchee at Peshastin was a hair over 11000cfs. We paddled the raft under the two logs on upper Ingalls and over two logs between the trailhead and the confluence, where we took out.
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  Quote chipmaney Replybullet Posted: 21 Jun 2011 at 11:30am


Rest of the run is clean. Left side of wood rapid was to manky to run at this flow. Damon said it wasn't any better the previous week, when flows were higher.
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  Quote arnobarno Replybullet Posted: 21 Jun 2011 at 5:27pm
Wow, I'm trying to follow this conversation and the discussion between John and Chip, and, I'm a little confused.

There are five, maybe six different features people seem to be talking about. Sorry for the analysis/paralysis/precision here, I'm just trying to understand...
W1) Wood spot #1 on the Ingalls, above the bridge
W2) Wood spot #2 on the Ingalls, above the bridge
W3) The wood coming off the right bank, about 100 yards (Chip said more) downstream of the normal bridge put-in.
W4) Wood at the top of the island, a little before the Peshastin confluence.
W5?) "Submerged channel-wide log to the right of the island right before the Peshastin confluence"
P1) Pin spot that John pinned/busted his hull and that someone in Chip's group pinned on, literally just above the confluence.

I ran Ingall's on 6/4 @ 590 cfs and 6/5 @ 700 cfs (on the DOE Peshastin gauge) putting in just below spot W3. Given this was our put-in, I had lots of time to look at the wood. At 590 cfs, the wood is partially out of the water. At 700 cfs, the top of the wood is just covered and it looks like you could boat over it (though I wouldn't want to, especially in a raft).

Some questions:
Q1) Is spot W4 different than spot W5? I never saw a submerged channel wide log but did see the wood lodged at the top of the island, extending out into the channel. It is possible it was channel wide as I naively floated over it.

Q2) This is really John's question. He was asking about the Pin Spot (P1). The day John pinned/destroyed his boat, I ran a line further to the right of his pin spot. Chip, he is asking you where the rest of your group ran w.r.t the pin spot - further right or left?? He isn't asking about any "wood rapid" unless you are calling the entire rapid to the right side of the island the "wood rapid"

Thanks, arn
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  Quote chipmaney Replybullet Posted: 21 Jun 2011 at 6:49pm
wood at the bottom of the put-in rapid and pin spot just upstream of the confluence. we did not see any other wood in play downstream of the standard put-in.
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  Quote arnobarno Replybullet Posted: 21 Jun 2011 at 8:15pm
Chip,
Appreciate the response but that isn't the question. No one is asking about wood. Simply asking about the line around the pin spot that is clean.

I ran right - just wondering how you guys ran the pin spot. That is, the folks that didn't pin. Did they run the same line and just get lucky?? Or did they have a clean run to the left or right.
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  Quote chipmaney Replybullet Posted: 22 Jun 2011 at 6:05am
went right
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  Quote TomMarley Replybullet Posted: 22 Jun 2011 at 8:55am
Originally posted by arnobarno


Q1) Is spot W4 different than spot W5?


No, I think we are talking about the same woodage. I may be mistaken about it being channel-wide.
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  Quote jP Replybullet Posted: 26 Jun 2011 at 9:14am
Ok
I was gonna set Yall straight about all this when my usual Herman Mellville style response timed out and probably exploded servers from here to Malaysia. Louder Than A Bomb.

Here's the deal: Yall be running Ingalls Too Low.

When you stand on the bridge at the trailhead, you should be able to count all high and dry boulders and rocks on one hand. There should be nothing else visible except fluffy bunnies from bank to bank, and not much greenwater at all.

chipper, that first submerged log ain't in play if there is enough water and you stick to the main trunk of current. Skirtn to the right sounds jankie at best.

The pin rocks of much discussion I usually stay Left of. Follow the water.

Arno, I love ya bro, but your posts were too cerebral to follow. Moral of the story here is we all need to name more of this sh*t.

I get fatigued listening to everyone say "you know, that little rock with the..."
This is why rapids and features have names. Proper names. Cmon people we have a fu*kin internet. There's not much reason why we can't name more of these rapids and features.

My last comment on this post is this:
Ingalls/Peshastin produces as much carnage as just about any run I've been on in this state. I'll detail this in the post that follows...

Be safe on these runs, and if you are leading someone, be responsible and competent in that role.
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  Quote jP Replybullet Posted: 26 Jun 2011 at 10:04am
http://www.professorpaddle.com/ppages/RTE/tripreport.asp?PPID=88&TRID=53&task=View

First off, my new "smarty pants" phone sucks. Forgive me if the above link doesn't work, but anyone planning on leading a trip down Ingalls and/or Peshastin should read my TR titled:
"Ingalls/Peshastin: Too Much Action"

Yes it is a very long 2 part TR, but I routinely continue to experience similar happenings on this run every year. It is a very continuous run, making yardsales very tough to mop up. Read the entire TR and you just may learn something, if not be entertained.

I know Charles' thread here concerns upper Ingalls, but Yall who dragged the discussion downstream hijacked it- now I'm just climbing on board for da ride.

So you think your all hot sh*t class IV caliber n 2 legit 2 quit? And your gonna lead someone down Ingalls or Peshastin...

My TR is representative of similar trips I've had on these runs with Peeps who invited Peeps who perhaps need more experience.

If you are leading Peeps down this run be sure you have a very high ratio of solid Class IV boaters to novices. Ain't many eddies out there to stop along the way. You better be a good Chase boater and have your trip stocked with other solid, rescue minded folk.

Seen a lot of people lead others down these continuous creeks who simply ARE NOT QUALIFIED to lead (on such a continuous creek).
Work on solidifying your own skills more before dragging someone in over their head.

I'm generallizing, so disregard if this don't apply to ya- just keep in mind that my advice applies to more of you more often than Yall gonna care to admit to yourselves. Half of ya can barely identify micro eddies smaller than a raft, let alone catch them. It would inspire more confidence in me too if more of ya could actually paddle your creekers in a straight line before "steppin it up" to Ingalls.

See the next post for the most recent example...
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  Quote jP Replybullet Posted: 26 Jun 2011 at 10:45am
So after T n K rafted it with me that day (sounds like it was notably higher than when you guys were there, but maybe not by much.) We floated under the bridge past the trailhead where some boaters had arrived to put on at the normal Ingalls put in.

Ain't mentioning no names that sh*t don't matter.
Two Ik's and two very knifey, pointy river runner/playboat-ish hardshells. The young fresh faces in the hardshells presumably were leading the Ik's. The Ik boaters: one had an obvious "whitewater intellect". This person may need to apply that intellect more vocally, and "go with the flow" less. The other Ik? DUDE! IT WAS GONNA BE THIS PERSON'S FIRST TRIP EVER IN AN IK! WTF?!!
has the whitewater world gone mad?

Here's the topper: they set shuttle at the Dryden Dam. They were set up for a long day of potential carnage and yardsales down the length of Peshastin. I grilled the kid trip leader hard about his experience, he buckled, and I talked them out of putting on.

Long n the short of it is that everyone retooled there ambitions for the day. Homeboy TL (that means "trip leader", Kayakers, and most trips should have one, unofficial or otherwise) still ended up yardsailing at The Squeeze- I think he lost his stick. But at least the Ik boaters who knew better to begin with were spared an epic.

Look, lot of you think I'm just trying to be all arrogant Terminal Expert Syndrome n sh*t. That ain't the real story yo. I just got knowledge to kick like my man Chuck D.

I got way more respect for competent, fluid, gracefully class III paddlers who exercise good judgement and practice good form than those who are rushing into class IV and being junk shows about it. Because many of those Peeps in a hurry to get hurt end up being idiots on class V. Don't clutter up the Chelan Gorge with your circus antics, driftwood.

It's cool we are all leArning, choose your own adventure- just be conscious of the larger arc of your own progression, and those you are with. Consciousness is what separates the Limbic System of senses and thought from the limbs of driftwood. It's your choice to be either. Paddle smart.

Louder Than A Bomb.

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  Quote chipmaney Replybullet Posted: 26 Jun 2011 at 2:08pm
yeah, a higher flow and the wood is not an issue...we definitely noted the channel could have use more water....
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  Quote JoesKayak Replybullet Posted: 27 Jun 2011 at 8:21am
Originally posted by jP

So after T n K rafted it with me that day (sounds like it was notably higher than when you guys were there, but maybe not by much.) We floated under the bridge past the trailhead where some boaters had arrived to put on at the normal Ingalls put in.

Ain't mentioning no names that sh*t don't matter.
Two Ik's and two very knifey, pointy river runner/playboat-ish hardshells. The young fresh faces in the hardshells presumably were leading the Ik's. The Ik boaters: one had an obvious "whitewater intellect". This person may need to apply that intellect more vocally, and "go with the flow" less. The other Ik? DUDE! IT WAS GONNA BE THIS PERSON'S FIRST TRIP EVER IN AN IK! WTF?!!
has the whitewater world gone mad?

Here's the topper: they set shuttle at the Dryden Dam. They were set up for a long day of potential carnage and yardsales down the length of Peshastin. I grilled the kid trip leader hard about his experience, he buckled, and I talked them out of putting on.

Long n the short of it is that everyone retooled there ambitions for the day. Homeboy TL (that means "trip leader", Kayakers, and most trips should have one, unofficial or otherwise) still ended up yardsailing at The Squeeze- I think he lost his stick. But at least the Ik boaters who knew better to begin with were spared an epic.

Look, lot of you think I'm just trying to be all arrogant Terminal Expert Syndrome n sh*t. That ain't the real story yo. I just got knowledge to kick like my man Chuck D.

I got way more respect for competent, fluid, gracefully class III paddlers who exercise good judgement and practice good form than those who are rushing into class IV and being junk shows about it. Because many of those Peeps in a hurry to get hurt end up being idiots on class V. Don't clutter up the Chelan Gorge with your circus antics, driftwood.

It's cool we are all leArning, choose your own adventure- just be conscious of the larger arc of your own progression, and those you are with. Consciousness is what separates the Limbic System of senses and thought from the limbs of driftwood. It's your choice to be either. Paddle smart.

Louder Than A Bomb.




That is just crazy! Good thing you were there to talk some sense. You very well may have saved a life with your words by talking them out of launching on Ingalls.

People need to realize Ingalls and Peshastin are much greater in difficulty and danger in whole than any of their specific parts are. The whole run is basically one long rapid at all but the lower levels. The waves and moves on Peshastin are mostly all class 3 features. However, there aren't pools between rapids, eddies are small and hard to catch, the riverbed is shallow and rocky.... swimmers or upside down kayakers who don't roll quickly can get pounded, and the continuous nature makes garage sales epic.
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  Quote Scott_H Replybullet Posted: 27 Jun 2011 at 9:13am
Kind of reminds me of that demotivational poster, "maybe the purpose of your life is to serve as a warning to others".  I hope to never be part of that kind of cluster - either picking up the pieces.....or he who needs his pieces picked up.
 
After a thankfully short beatdown on something over my head a couple years back, I have the mindset that my progression up the river difficulty ladder should be taken sloooowly and only once I feel that I will hit a particular run with confidence and competence; competence coming from practice on familiar runs and either the occasional formal instruction or watching some video on the basic strokes\draws. 
 
This really isn't the sport to "wing it".
 
Thanks for putting this up.
 
 
“The problem with people who have no vices is that generally you can be pretty sure they're going to have some pretty annoying virtues.”
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  Quote jP Replybullet Posted: 27 Jun 2011 at 11:48am
Yeah Joe, great runnin into you @ cafe. I think people don't speak up about their concerns like they used to- Peeps don't wanna rock da boat, make waves, or step on toes, and I can dig it.
But during those more rare examples, speaking one's mind can spare someone an epic they may rather avoid given the heads up. It's bullsh*t when someone w/ terminal expert syndrome throws their weight around just for the sake of feeling superior, but if you got legit concerns to raise, don't let petty social concerns trump "call-in it how you see it". Damn smart phone just crammed a hyphen where I didn't want it.

Slick, dont weaken my favorite pejorative, man! Can't you see how hard I'm working to insert it into the contemporary vernacular? Jeez! BTW I am occasionally guilty of overvpaddling when I'm scared, I admit.

Scott- I see it as a matter of degrees. We are out there to push our own personal envelopes, and our crews should support us when we slightlyvget in over our heads. As long as Peeps ain't unreasonably out of their depth. Again its the resonsibility of TL's to help da newbs figure it out. Newbs gotta respect experience too. I can't lead if X factors don't wanna follow.

Rescue: important skills. Participate. Makes you a better boater. Don't avoid such opportunity.

fu*k it its just Boatn. Just don't get hurt n its all good.
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  Quote jP Replybullet Posted: 27 Jun 2011 at 11:52am
Oh better go- my new crew gonna spew if I'm late for the Rio!
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  Quote doggievacation Replybullet Posted: 27 Jun 2011 at 12:39pm
JP, I would not be surprised if you're right, that Ingalls/Peshastin dishes out as much or more river carnage as other creeks in the state.  After all, everybody feels braver when it's hot and the sunny and, besides, Peshastin is only rated III+, so how bad could it really be?  In reality, the action is fast and furious and even though there are no "must make moves" (hence the III+ rating)  there really isn't much room for forgiveness if you fu*k up or make a bad decision.  This is a creek, damnit, not the Wenatchee!

You also make a good point about trip leaders.  I took a pair of good but rusty boaters down Peshastin (not Ingalls) at 560 cfs, and found my leadership skills to be wanting.  For starters, one of my fellow boaters forgot his float bags (they were in his play boat) so I gave him one of mine.  Of course, if anyone is going to swim, it's the guy without adequate floatation so, basically, I chased his half-submerged Jefe from Fresh Squeezed almost down to the takeout before I finally got it off the river.  Not fun, but a good lesson.

So there it is, take me out to the woodshed with all the other driftwood.

John
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  Quote jP Replybullet Posted: 27 Jun 2011 at 10:43pm
Yeah but those are the experiences that sharpen us up for "the real thing" later on when it really counts, right? That ain't driftwood in the shed, Ed, that's skills in the bank if we learn from our lessons as you said.
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