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PaddleGirl
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  Quote PaddleGirl Replybullet Topic: Self Support Kayaking
    Posted: 20 May 2011 at 3:41pm
A goal of mine is to do some self support kayaking... but I don't know anything about it.
 
Are there any references out there for gear lists and tips?
 
Also, does anyone have any advice on:
- permits?
- good overnighters or 2-4 day trips to start on?
- gear?
 
And a big question i have is... I paddle a small burn and weigh about 130.  How's that going to handle weighed down in class III-IV whitewater?  Do I need a bigger boat? 
 
Any reference sites, advice, comments are all appreciated. 
 
Peace,
Jen
 
 
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Jed Hawkes
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  Quote Jed Hawkes Replybullet Posted: 20 May 2011 at 5:07pm
I haven't done much multi day stuff, but there are a few resources out there.

Darren Mcquoid has a tutorial section on his website where he covers Multi-day gear packing.

http://www.kayakphoto.com/darinmcquoid/overnight.html

Keep in mind that Darren is packing for expedition style class V kayaking, so he's going light and simple. If you want to have a bit more luxury you could probably make that happen.

There was also a film that came out that was about a 12 day self support kayak trip down the grand canyon.

http://vimeo.com/18928094

But I don't know much about it beyond the trailer to the movie.

In regards to your kayak question, I'd say you'd be fine. Your on the lower end of the weight range for the boat, but that doesn't mean that loading the boat won't change the way it performs, it'll be slower and less responsive. Making sure you pack the load evenly will mitigate this, but it's still going to be a pig compared to how it normally paddles.

Good luck.

-Jed
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  Quote Wiggins Replybullet Posted: 20 May 2011 at 5:24pm
I have been getting into multiday boating over the last few years. Here are a few resources that have helped me out:
 
 
 
 
 
Some good runs to start out on are the Sauk from Bedal to Darrington or Sauk Campground, the Green from the Headworks through the Yo Yo stretch, and the Skagit from Newhalem to Rockport. These runs are long enough to camp on and get your gear sorted out, but close enough to civilization that you can bail or stow gear on shore to retrieve later if you find your boat too unwieldy with the extra gear. When you get all that sorted out do a low water Rogue River trip.
 
You might need another boat to hold everything, but look at boats that use the space they have better rather than a boat that might be too big for you. Boats that don't use center pillars are great for this. The LL XP series was a great idea, but the rear hatch has limited space for storage because it is shallow and houses the rudder. I think Pyrahna did a better job in their multiday boat design. You could also do what I did, and get a canoe. I can carry enough gear to support a couple people.
 
Kyle
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  Quote PaddleGirl Replybullet Posted: 20 May 2011 at 9:15pm
Hey guys thanks a lot for all the links... some great info.

Really good point about the space. My problem with no center pillar is that those boats get heavy. The pyranha, are you talking about the fusion?   I can see myself going a more creeky direction, not sure how that boat would do.

I had been thinking of a medium burn since last summer, just wanting for a little more volume, even without a load... and I love the way the burn paddles, not that I know much else of creekboats.. I liked the villain s and that has even more volume than a burn m.

Sounds like I need to get some drybags and hit the green some weekend.
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  Quote Connor Replybullet Posted: 21 May 2011 at 1:45am
http://adventurekayaking.com/tips/self_support_kayak.html

Really good write up about the basics by Phil DeRiemer.
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  Quote irenen Replybullet Posted: 21 May 2011 at 8:55am
Hey Jen,
 
I took a small Burn on a multi-day last year and I weigh about what you do, it was definitely slower but on the up side plowed through holes better because of the weight, and I was really amazed that it was just as easy to roll up and brace as when it was unloaded.
 
I had enough room for clothes, tent, etc for a 3 day, 2 night trip, which I realize is not long, but I didn't use the bow of the boat for storage, that was all in the stern.
 
I really like the drybags with the purge valve so that as you roll them up air releases from near the bottom and they end up vacuum packing themselves, I think mine are Sealline.  You can get stern-shaped ones too.
 
Have fun out there! :)
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  Quote AdamS Replybullet Posted: 22 May 2011 at 2:17pm
Hey Jen.  I am so glad to hear this question.  Self-support is a lot of fun.  I've only done it a little, but with guys who do it as a way of life.  I just got back from a four-day Jarbridge/Bruneau I paddled in my large burn (probably similar at my size to you in your burn).  I thought it kind of sucked as a multi-day platform.  Really hard to pack the back with the dip in the rear of the cockpit, and really grabby in the stern when loaded.  My friend Willie was in a Liquid Logic Remix that seemed perfect, and he is definitely a multi-day self-support expert.  I would have loved to have the ease of packing and soft edges he enjoyed.

As for gear: I use Watershed stow-floats, a Jet boil stove, MSR Hubba one-person tent and freeze dried food.  You'll need a water filter of some kind and a well thought out first aid kit.  Someone should have a breakdown paddle and light weight tarp is nice.  We pack the booze in platypus collapsible bottles.  Another thing most of us do is have one of the bags irened suggested which we carry between our legs to get some of the weight centered.

A great intro multi-day is the Rogue in Southern Oregon.  Hope to tackle it with you one of these days....

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  Quote chipmaney Replybullet Posted: 23 May 2011 at 8:11am
I have always wanted to do the Suiattle as an easy Class III overnighter....however, multi-days are hard to get on around here, because the rivers are so short.  I recommend looking south to Oregon...the John Day River or the Grande Ronde. These are beautiful rivers and are very approachable for beginning self-support trips. And, you can get reaches that are a little long than just an overnight....
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  Quote PaddleGirl Replybullet Posted: 25 May 2011 at 11:56am

Thanks everyone for all your input.  some of those links are great.

 

I did my first overnighter last night.  It's always great to sleep outside down by a river... "In a bed, in a bed, by the waterside I will lay my head.  Listen to the river sing sweet songs, to rock my soul."

 
I used my small burn and it was fine, a little less forgiving and the stern was a little grabby... but in a way that minimally affected paddling class III water (at least in my lazy floatish way that i was paddling yesterday and this morning).  eddies were a little harder to catch though.  Adam, I hear what you're saying about loading the burn and about the edges.

 

i was also happy about not having issues carrying the loaded boat.  having more food might make it harder though.  and maybe a few more items.

 

What do you guys like for pants and shoes at camp?  are rainpants and base layers the way to go?

 

Im still torn on water bottle of bleach vs water filter vs iodine tablets.

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  Quote Jed Hawkes Replybullet Posted: 25 May 2011 at 12:04pm
I I find a rain pant over the insulating layers works fine.

As far as footwear goes it's very season specific. On our green river overnight this feb I brought my big boots to keep the toes warm, but if it was late spring early summer I might opt for a sandle or croc that I could wear a sock with.

I'm a fan of the two part Aquamira water treatment. Bleach works if you can't get ahold of anything else, and iodine probably works the best against the worst of the worst, but Aquamira works well for all domestic uses and doesn't have much of a nasty taste.
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  Quote PaddleGirl Replybullet Posted: 25 May 2011 at 1:32pm
I forgot, one more question. 
 
Any advice on bivies?  planning to go tarp / bivy route.
 
with pole, without pole.. 
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  Quote James Replybullet Posted: 25 May 2011 at 2:23pm
Bivy's rock, I would go with the OR bivy, and you can even check them out this year at the Ball or buy one out there too. Nothing beats a Gortex Biv. If your going tarp I would ignore the stick and work on your guy lines. The 550 cord system is a must if your going to be an efficient tarpist. (See Jp for more Tarp Teachings)
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  Quote dave Replybullet Posted: 25 May 2011 at 3:45pm
Get a water filter system...it is the only way to go.
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  Quote rainpaddle Replybullet Posted: 25 May 2011 at 4:05pm
Comments in no particular order:

In small to medium sized groups we typically have one or two persons carry a water purifier for the group for everyone's use.

When I used the Burn as a self support platform I moved the seat as far forward as possible and felt it was better balanced with a load in the stern. Pyranha doesn't make it easy, though. regardless of trim, the two boats I've used in self support were slower and not as control friendly. They rolled easily.

A bivy by OR weighs a bit over 2 pounds. My Primus propane stove weighs a couple ounces with the canister weighing about 6 and my pot another 4 ounces. Pretty light stuff.

You can repackage dee hi food so that it doesn't take up as much bulk space.

In past centuries, the Celts wanted to reduce the weight of beer and barley wines so they distilled them (much like the French distilled wine) to make beverages more portable. The end result was Whisky for the Celts and Brandy for the French. Just throwing it out there.

I will center some weight by lashing a dry bag of stuff to the plastic rail between the seat and pillar. I try to keep as much weight out of the stern with varying degrees of success.

Wildwasser packable float bags are ok; Watershed stow floats are sweet.

I will pack my sleeping bag once enclosed in stuff sack into a garbage bag, then into the Watershed stow float. I cannot afford to get the bag soaked.

Inflatable pads take up less space than foam pads but they can leak and are usually heavier.

Tevas or Keens with waterproof socks work fairly well for me, even in wetter months.

Rob
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  Quote dave Replybullet Posted: 25 May 2011 at 6:06pm
Originally posted by rainpaddle


I will pack my sleeping bag once enclosed in stuff sack into a garbage bag, then into the Watershed stow float. I cannot afford to get the bag soaked.

Rob
 
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  Quote Jed Hawkes Replybullet Posted: 25 May 2011 at 6:17pm
ZING!
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  Quote dave Replybullet Posted: 25 May 2011 at 7:32pm
Jed, are you coming to the PP Ball? I hope you are because I like your sense of humor!
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  Quote BRoss Replybullet Posted: 25 May 2011 at 9:33pm
The lower Deschutes from below Shearers Falls to the Columbia (in Oregon) is a nice easy self support run that runs all the time. I think you need some kind of permit to boat it. I believe the camping is pretty good but I honestly can't remember much of it (spring break in college). I do remember that it is a cold cold place in march.
"That boated a lot better than it looked." "It always does until it doesn't."
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  Quote BRoss Replybullet Posted: 25 May 2011 at 9:36pm
Originally posted by PaddleGirl

I did my first overnighter last night. It's always great to sleep outside down by a river... "In a bed, in a bed, by the waterside I will lay my head. Listen to the river sing sweet songs, to rock my soul."


Nice Dead lyric. What did you run on your overnight?
"That boated a lot better than it looked." "It always does until it doesn't."
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  Quote PaddleGirl Replybullet Posted: 26 May 2011 at 8:11am
we ran the middle middle, putting in at the bridge.  not too long, but enough to test out stuff and see how the boat paddles. 
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  Quote arnobarno Replybullet Posted: 26 May 2011 at 9:10am
Two comments:
1) I've used lots of different water filtration systems over the years - pumps, steripen, tablet, etc. The best, without question, are the new gravity fed systems. I have the MSR AutoFlow but there are a couple of others that are made by other companies. These systems are great when you are setting up a basecamp as you just hang the system on a rock and you are done. No pumping and fast. IMHO, the best system if you have more than one person and weight isn't the absolute most important factor (if weight is your biggest concern, use tablets).

2) Another good close-by overnight run would be to do the Upper Middle combined with the Middle Middle. The Upper Middle is easy, beautiful and certainly feels remote in parts. Not sure what the road access situation is right now. You want to put-in at the highest possible put-in (the "new" one mentioned on the AW site).
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  Quote James Replybullet Posted: 26 May 2011 at 9:28am
The green turns into a great one two, Headworks to Whitney Bridge.
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  Quote PaddleGirl Replybullet Posted: 26 May 2011 at 10:16am

i'd love to spend a night in the green gorge sometime. that sounds awesome.

 
 
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  Quote Scott_H Replybullet Posted: 26 May 2011 at 10:57am

The Middle Fork Snoqualmie Road is now open all the way to the Dingford Creek Trailhead.  A couple of us had been talking about doing a two day upper run once we get some nice weather.  I paddled that section once a few years back and thought there were some cool spots to pull over and camp out in a more remote setting - beautiful out there.

The problem with people who have no vices is that generally you can be pretty sure they're going to have some pretty annoying virtues.
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  Quote PaddleGirl Replybullet Posted: 23 Oct 2012 at 1:54pm
wow, look at this old thread!  I've come a long way in the last year and a half.
 
So my new question is...  what are good self support trips for the winter season?  Don't say the grand canyon or the rogue or the deschutes, because i've already done those!
 
Green as an overnighter... the sauk if it's running... what else?  I'm including the WA, OR, and ID area....
 
Thanks PP-ers!
Jen
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