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Wiggins
PP Junkie
Joined: 15 Aug 2005
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   Posted: 28 Apr 2011 at 3:59pm |
It strikes me that a lot of people are harping on others moving up too fast as being the problem when there also seems to be little evidence that was the case here. Jule was on a run that she had done before, with a group of qualified paddlers to support her, a group agreement to scout, and a plan to walk the rapids she couldn't handle. She swam, it happens.
Dropping the blame on her for the other paddler getting stuck is complete and utter bullsh*t. The fact of the matter is that paddler broke one of the most basic safety rules by chasing a boat into a big rapid rather than looking where he was going. He took a situation that had stabilized itself and turned it on its head when he created a need for a second rescue.
We can talk about slalom boating, eddy hopping, and making hard lines on easy rapids all day long, but at some point you cannot progress without actually stepping up to a more difficult drop. One of the most common places we see this is with people wanting to get their first descent on boulder drop. They can prepare all they want, but eventually you have to just run it. Maybe it works out, and maybe it does not. It is just part of the sport.
Kyle
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I smell bacon
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Jule
Paddler
Joined: 21 Nov 2008
Location: United States
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Posts: 78
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Posted: 28 Apr 2011 at 5:04pm |
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You won't catch me there again either, not any time soon. But I do feel better about this whole boating thing, and I am amazed at our encouraging, cozy little community. This was a good catalyst to examine our reasons for boating the way we do, and I appreciate it if people speak their minds.
For myself, I will step back for a while, work on paddling gracefully, staying upright and in control, getting out of holes, teaching beginners, building my independence. It's very easy to always attach yourself to better boaters who will take you places you'd never venture into on your own. But as I have learned, just because you can follow someone's line doesn't mean you can judge things for yourself. I recently led a group down the upper Green for the first time, and that step to independence was just as cool, scary and exhilarating as running something challenging for the first time.
I don't blame myself for what happened on Tumwater, but I do know I set into motion a sequence of events, and without me being there everybody's day would have likely turned out different. Maybe the carnage would have been deferred until they got to Chaos.
I have this magical attraction to deep green canyons with moss dripping, groveling through vertical dirt while dragging your boat, and the absolute trust we have to have in each other while doing this. Balancing this with my responsibilities as a mother and wife will always be tricky and in flux, but I just can't help myself.
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water wacko
Master Poster
Team Jackson
Joined: 07 Nov 2006
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Posts: 2137
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Posted: 28 Apr 2011 at 6:52pm |
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Nor should you. The river is a magical place.
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"Don't ask yourself what the world needs. Ask yourself what makes you come alive, and go do that, because what the world needs is people who have come alive." ~Howard Thurman
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dave
Master Poster
D4
Joined: 29 Apr 2005
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Posted: 28 Apr 2011 at 8:31pm |
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Run the upper Green a bunch, and look for the hard lines...that river is a blast between 1300-1500 and of course higher levels. 1300-1500 is a good party level get stoned and hit all the fun lines...
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Nomad
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FLUID
WW Industry
Joined: 15 Jan 2007
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Posts: 276
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Posted: 28 Apr 2011 at 10:25pm |
We can talk about slalom boating, eddy hopping, and making hard lines on easy rapids all day long, but at some point you cannot progress without actually stepping up to a more difficult drop. One of the most common places we see this is with people wanting to get their first descent on boulder drop. They can prepare all they want, but eventually you have to just run it. Maybe it works out, and maybe it does not. It is just part of the sport.
Kyle
I totally disagree. The common theme I see as people step up is they have very little in the way of a good foundation and they think "stepping it up" will make them better. Wrong  . kayaking is all fundamental and repetition is the mother of learning and muscle memory. you can't be thinking about good technique in tuff rapids you have to train that way all the time so when you do want to step it up you have the foundation to do it. people forget about paddling style and strokes along with efficient boat control. most folks take a beginner class and two years later there on class v bombing down the river but if you asked them what a dynamic c stroke was they couldn't tell you or show you how it works. work on skill... dynamic boofing, lateral momentom, pillow moves ect.. people think it's all about bombing down the river and if you get through still in your boat you are succeful. well if thats the case your not looking at the same river like I am.
There's a lot of class v paddlers hacking there way down rivers and they eventually get good, get beat, quit or go back to class IV. It took me years to run hard class V and I thank all those years of teaching to me having a safe positive time now on class V. The other issue is I had good roll models that new me and didn't get me over my head to much. my skill was always bigger then my balls and I could have run gnarlier stuff earlier probably but I'm happy I didn't.... because now I have a blast on hard water do to years of conditioning....... 
Totten
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Wiggins
PP Junkie
Joined: 15 Aug 2005
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Posted: 28 Apr 2011 at 11:04pm |
Totten,
I actually don't think we are too far apart on this issue. I agree that we have seen an epidemic of people moving into water they aren't prepared for without a decent foundation or skill set to fall back on. I think that runs like Tumwater, CC Stilly, and FITW are regularly being under estimated to the point that class III padlers are venturing out into these places. I just don't see a lot of evidence that is what happened with Jule.
It has taken me over six years to get to where I am at, and it will be a while still before I will be considering class V for the very reasons you listed.
The point I was trying to make was that you can do everything to prepare yourself (eddy hopping, slalom, etc.), surround yourself with the right people, and wait until you and your crew all think you are capable of handling it. If you ever actually want to accomplish what you set out to do you are still going to have to attempt it at some point, and even with all the preparation in the world it can still go wrong.
If a group takes on a newbie at any level, you have to expect that this type of thing will happen. I still see the root cause being the other paddler chasing gear in a major drop.
I definitely was not trying to say the proper way to progress is to go huck and hope, and let the chips fall where they may!
Kyle
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I smell bacon
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FLUID
WW Industry
Joined: 15 Jan 2007
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Posts: 276
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Posted: 28 Apr 2011 at 11:04pm |
The last thing is frequency, the folks I paddle with are getting out there three maybe four times a week if we can.not many people paddle that much. going back now and again to revisit your class IV-V skill set is hard to do and you need to put in some time. if your a now and again boater your stepping scale should be a lot slower.
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FLUID
WW Industry
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Posted: 28 Apr 2011 at 11:08pm |
Agreed... good chat.
If it was me I would have not let her get on the river knowing her skill... just saying.
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FLUID
WW Industry
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Posted: 28 Apr 2011 at 11:09pm |
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I'll reword that , I would have strongly advised against it.. but it's still there call..
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Erik
Splat Wheeler
Joined: 31 Aug 2005
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Posts: 130
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Posted: 29 Apr 2011 at 12:41am |
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OMG...take that dead horse out back and beat her to death...seriously just beat that horse to DEATH. Then turn that dead horse into glue.
This one time...at band camp...I shoved a Werner Paddle up my pussy. Just sayin'. Just like ANYTHING in life...if you're not absolutely sure you're gonna stomp whatever it is you're about to do...don't do it. The river does not care where you're at in your process. It will reward you for being ready, and will dish it out if you're not. It takes some people months, other people years...or never...to figure that out.
A good rule of thumb is to not take any advice from an online forum...including any drunk postings @ 12:41 a.m.
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FLUID
WW Industry
Joined: 15 Jan 2007
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Posted: 29 Apr 2011 at 1:25am |
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Agreed. I sometimes wonder myself why I post.. because of comments like that...
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Erik
Splat Wheeler
Joined: 31 Aug 2005
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Posted: 29 Apr 2011 at 2:40am |
Originally posted by FLUID
I'll reword that , I would have strongly advised against it.. but it's still there call..
You spelled "their" wrong Totten. There was a day when talking sh*t on the internet was acceptable. It was a jab, sorry if it offended...
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FLUID
WW Industry
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Posted: 29 Apr 2011 at 3:55am |
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Erik
Splat Wheeler
Joined: 31 Aug 2005
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Posted: 29 Apr 2011 at 6:44am |
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Damn...you stayed up even later than I did. 3:55 a.m.? Ok...you win.
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Ellingferd
McNasty
Joined: 21 Jun 2005
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Posts: 418
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Posted: 29 Apr 2011 at 8:00am |
I think the mental side of whitewater is something that goes completely ignored but, in some ways, is almost more important than having your skills totally dialed. Example: two boaters running, lets say, Boulder drop at 14,000. Boater 1 has off the charts skills but lacks the mental ability to keep their sh*t in a pile. Boater 2 has decent skills, but feels comfortable in boulder drop at 14,000. Who would I place my bet on to get through the rapid in their boat? Boater 2 because if Boater 1 freaks out, those skills are worthless. I have seen it happen plenty of times. Someone has the skills but lacks the mental ability to use them.
My suggestion for anyone looking to boat hard whitewater is to do the following: playboat the wenatchee at high water. Get into rodeo hole at 14,000 not once, but over and over again. Get beat down (and that thing WILL beat you down). Swim out of that thing. Have your skirt implode. Whatever. Then move downstream to trinity and actually get on the wave, a lot. You will experience all kinds of crazy sh*t that will test your skills and boat handling. Then move downstream to Snowblind and try and surf the stickiest and trashiest that rapid has to offer at high water. Do this consistently (i.e. all weekends when the water is that high) when there is water and you will be a way better boater than if you had just tried to "step it up" on class V a few times. You will build technique like you never thought because you HAVE TO if you wish to avoid a beating and also have fun. You will build mental strength because even though the risk factor in swimming out of Rodeo is only the inconvenience of picking up your sh*t, it FEELS like you are going to die when you are in that thing. Eventually you will learn to hang on, roll up, and continue to throw sick ass blunts after being in the washing machine. Basically, it will numb your senses. This will not work if you attempt to get on the wave once, decide it is too scary, and then move on to turkey shoot for the next five hours.
People underestimate the value of playboating big, intimidating features like this. The reality is learning to boat these features teaches you all the boat handling, edging, etc. you will ever need. This transfers to creeking, at least in my opinion, in a profound way. Once you have gotten a beat down in rodeo, hung on, and then continued to surf instead of swimming, you will be more likely to hold on when getting beat down in some class V rapid. You will also be able to keep it together for the rest of a class V run if you have a bad line because brushing off the post-beatdown jitters is also a part of playboating big features.
Just my two cents. Like Shardle says, dont take advice from anyone on the internets, particularly Shrdle.
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huckin harms
Master Poster
Joined: 03 Nov 2005
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Posted: 29 Apr 2011 at 9:25am |
good conversation...
Just a couple observations: Tumwater is deceptive. You look at it from the road and its all pretty straight forward, but its not until your on the water that you realize the power of the current and the obscure nature of the horizon lines. The Wall is long, and its easy to be lost if you haven't nailed down the lines. It comes right off the bat with no warm-up. I've witnessed a lot of carnage on that rapid. One time a party lost a boat, never seen again, which seems strange because it ends at the lake.
Good words on dialing in the skill set before running classV. I have often said 'no' to running a particular drop, or section of river, for whatever reason and have had to face the time of regret for not having tried. But I also realize that paddling isn't all about running class V; at least not for me. Many people will get into this sport for the fame and fantasy of being a sponsored athlete with all the fortune that goes with the industry, cough, cough... fleeting as it will be. Others chase the V because its an addiction.
What's really important to me about paddling is the relationship between 'me' and the h20. It's all that stuff JP talks about, and paddling class V doesn't make you 'better' than the next person who may not care to run the gnar but enjoys the scenic float. What is really important is having fun, eh.
But if you do desire the 'fear factor' and love feats of strength, trial by fire, and the human highlight show, then follow some of the aforementioned advice on hucking your meat into the rowdiest spots you can manage.
Paddling for most of us is all about getting away from the craziness of the world we live in, a stress relieving exercise, finding peace and flow in an arena few people are familiar with. Its a special privlege not to be taken for granted. An activity that should make us better persons having experienced the best nature has to offer. But make no mistake, as Shertzel said, the rio gives not a lick for us or our love for it.
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jondufay
PP Junkie
Joined: 07 Apr 2005
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Posted: 29 Apr 2011 at 9:54am |
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all this rig amoral over 3 rapids and a big lake....sheesh
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ahh, f--- it dude, lets go boating...
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jondufay
PP Junkie
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Posted: 29 Apr 2011 at 10:00am |
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rigamorale....sorry
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ahh, f--- it dude, lets go boating...
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Ellingferd
McNasty
Joined: 21 Jun 2005
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Posts: 418
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Posted: 29 Apr 2011 at 10:12am |
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Arent you a f**king teacher?
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jondufay
PP Junkie
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Posted: 29 Apr 2011 at 10:14am |
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I am. My kids are hard at work...
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ahh, f--- it dude, lets go boating...
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irenen
Big Boofer
Joined: 24 Jul 2009
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Posted: 29 Apr 2011 at 11:18am |
OK, I've been kind of glued to this thread so am going to post before it gets totally sidetracked.
The reason I've been reading it is that it hits on something that I'm in the midst of figuring out right now, which is that bombing Class IV stuff for the last year and a half hasn't necessarily given me what I would call good Class IV skills, and it's definitely not the skill set that allows you to progress to Class V.
Not only that - and I think this is even more important - I realized this year that constantly pushing myself to run beefier water, often in small boats, was actually tilting the fear-to-fun ratio in the wrong direction, to where I wasn't as excited about going out on a run as I used to be. I was always happy to make it down the drop, but I think on some level that extent of fear - which mainly comes from feeling out of control (key point for this post) was leaving me kind of traumatized too.
(For the record, because I know someone will bring this up otherwise, I don't boat with a crowd that pushes you to do stuff you're not comfortable with - in my opinion they couldn't be better as far as being encouraging without making you feel bad if you decide to not do something. So the pushing yourself stuff is all me.)
The people on here (JP, Fluid) who say that it's better to style Class III than to boat sloppily on Class IV are totally right, in my opinion. I also understand that at some point you have to step it up and things get harder, but what they are saying is that when you do that you should already have developed a good skill set to carry you through it. And like Totten said, you develop those skills on easier water where you can maintain good form and repeat it (and repeat it) enough that you create muscle memory for the skills that allow you to boat in control on harder water.
In water where you're already pushed to your limits you learn how to 'deal', which is also valuable, but for the most part that's not where you learn how to do well the things that keep you in control. So I think both are part of the picture, but dialing in really good skills definitely comes first, and I do agree that it's a myth that that happens on harder water, for the most part.
The mental part is important too, but I think I'm living proof that a good attitude can only take you so far. Feeling out of control on the water will eventually erode your confidence, even if you do make it down the drops without swimming.
I'm in the process of retracing my steps, working really hard on drills on Class III stuff, and hopefully building up a skill base that will allow me to do Class IV differently than I've done it so far - in control, and more enjoyably. Which doesn't mean I won't still throw myself into Lunch Hole occasionally, but who are we kidding, that's the one place where it's totally expected that you will be 'boating out of control.' :)
Anyway, proof positive on the switch so far, I'm already having more fun. :)
P.S. Thanks to all who posted, I thought the comments on here (most of them anyway) were stellar.
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It's all fun and games until someone loses a paddle.
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JayB
Big Boofer
Joined: 21 Feb 2005
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Posted: 29 Apr 2011 at 1:32pm |
I understand where Jon/Erik are coming from, but "thread creep" is what online forums are all about, and the conversation has veered quite a long ways away from Jule's initial post - and I appreciate all of the general thoughts on progression that people have shared here.
I think that "go with the flow" is a good cliche to invoke when talking about paddling. The longer you stay involved in boating, the more likely it is that the things that you enjoy about it will change over time - often in ways that you might not have been able to anticipate.
I consider myself a reasonably solid class IV boater who steps it up occaisionally when the tangibles (CFS, run-character, etc) and intangibles (boating frequency, crew, confidence level, etc) feel right. When I was starting out - getting better meant making it through rapids without swimming. Then - after a terrible beating and what felt like a near drowning - it was getting a roll on both sides, with and without a paddle.
I think I had my most significant progression from 05-08. What happened then? I moved to the East Coast, where all of the decent climbing was a long way away and the mountains left me pretty uninspired, and the skiing was generally pretty lame as well - so I wound up doing much more boating. Then I met up with a loose confederation of folks that I just sort of clicked with and felt super comfortable following down new runs. Most of the harder stuff was low volume and technical, which I found that I prefer. And I was super-motivated to run everythig I could because I knew that I only had three years to boat the stuff and I'd likely never get to run it again. And...I saw some drops either in person or online that I saw dudes I boated with running that really inpired me, so I spent a year fired up to get myself to the level I'd need to be at to boat them in good style.
I wasn't even aware of half of this stuff when I was in the thick of it, but when I moved back to the PNW, then to NZ - things just felt different for a bunch of reasons and the main vibe I was feeling was "back off a bit and consolidate," which I did. My goals changed to savoring the old classics and finding new runs that were either super-beautiful or were challenging in the ways that I really dug (steepish, lower volume, and pool-droppy). I think If I'd fought against that vibe and tried to stay on the step-it-up path I was on when I was in a different place, in a different time - boating would have turned into something where the stress/fear/anxiety/doubt-to-fun/peace/beauty ratio was so skewed that I would have burned out.
Kind of a long way of saying "Go with the flow." When Emphasize the kind of boating that inspires you, when it inspires you and you'll probably be more stoked, *and* you may even find yourself progressing faster if you do, for reasons that you wouldn't have been able to predict...
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-Jay
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